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Author Topic: P2 Cooling modifications, In search of efficient cooling for SX48, SX38, SP35, etc  (Read 4484 times)
jrturbo
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« on: July 23, 2009, 11:53:46 AM »

Hi guys, I hope you find this of interest

During the course of the modifications to my shuttle , I could not help thinking that If I had designed my Shuttle I would have done some things differently, no doubt my line of thinking doesn’t suffer the same constraints as Shuttle (like trying to do things cheaply), but you can´t turn your head away from new developments in the PC industry, one of the latest  trends  is Quiet /Efficient cooling, which is a strange thing to say in some ways, since Shuttle has been a pioneer in using heatpipe cooling technology.

Shuttle tells us that that their SFF systems  are so well designed, that they are perfectly capable of using all the hardware associated with the most powerfull desktop computers whilst enjoying this in a small footprint  format that is also reasonably quiet.  The truth isn’t so rosy, if we take the SX48p2 Deluxe as an example which was shuttles top of the range model until the SX58 was introduced very recently and build it with the following components like I did.

Cpu         Intel QX9650 (waste of money, better to buy a Q9650 and overclock it 3.6 ghz if you need speed)
GPU        ATI 4870 512mb
HDD        WD Velociraptors 300gb x2, Raid 0
Optical drive    LG DVD recorder
Memory    DDR3 4gb (2x2gb) Corsair Dominator 1800mhz cl8 (better to get 1600mhz memory with lowest latency, because the mb tops out at 1600 fsb)

You will find that everything works, but the temperatures and noise under load are not what most of us would expect. The problem resides in the fact that the cooling solutions from shuttle have not changed much since the introduction of the P2 chassis and while they were perfectly adequate for the hardware available a few years ago, it struggles to cope with current  components as I found out when I put mine together with the above components.  Although a less powerful graphic card and cpu would obviously be easier to cool, and the truth is that, there is fair number of shuttle owners quite happy about their general temps in their systems, but its not what most of us would call a silent cooling solution  either, so it would still be worthwhile try and improve the cooling efficiency, even if the result is similar temps  but  near silent operation.

In order to improve the cooling in a shuttle, you need to understand how it works  and its design limitations, as standard,  all the fans in the system are set to blow out air, fresh enters the case through the various grilles and openings, this configuration works reasonably well, until you fit a powerful graphic card , which the latest models  due to their size  block a large amount of the ventilation grills used for air intake,  and dump a lot of heat inside the case, if you add a hot CPU into the mix things can start to get hot, in my case I have to add another problem, high ambient temps due to the local climate.

With the P chassis we have 2 problems, limited airflow inside the case , and a cpu cooler and a chipset cooler that just about copes with intels fastest extreme chip ( QX9770) at their nominal speeds(NB temps go up noticeably when running at 400 fsb) and when you have a  hot graphic card also dumping  its heat load inside the case, the result will be the fan speeds will speed up in order to try and maintain the temperatures under control, and the 2 ICE fans are anything but silent when they speed up along with the 2 60mm rear case fans, Graphic cards like the ATI 4870 due to their length not only do they block the intake of fresh air into the case, but the usual dual slot cooling solution used in these cards in many cases also blocks airflow through the mosfet heatsink which is linked by heatpipes to the northbridge and southbridge heatsinks, causing your motherboard and chipset temps to run hotter.

The normal course of events  once you reach the conclusion that although everything works your system runs too hot under load, is to start scratching your head looking at ways to improve the cooling, especially if you want to overclock in order to gain the maximum performance from your system or if you wish your to run your shuttle as a silent pc.

So I looked at the ICE cooler to see what could be done to improve the cooling, and it does not look promising, four single sided heatpipes  which are cooled by a relatively small finned area by current day standards, of which its uppers section is blanked off by the 3.5” drive bay below the optical drive, removing this obstacle should improve the amount of airflow through the ICE cooler,but after this its obvious that the only way to increase improve cooling would be to increase the airspeed, and the original fan must have one of the highest rpm I have ever seen for a 92mm pwm fan (4000 + rpm) , So finding a fan that moves more air is going to be difficult to find, for the sake of comparison most so called silent 92mm pwm fans will rarely exceed 2500 rpm at full speed , at which point they are not exactly silent either.





Some people including myself have replaced the original shuttle fans with silent ones, and found this usually gives poor results with hot processors, the slower spinning silent fans pushed less air through the ICE cooler, I managed to compensate this loss to certain extent  by removing the 3.5” drive bay and replacing the original 70mm pwm fan with a 2nd 92mm fan with a home made shroud for the fan/heatsink in order to maximize fan airflow, this exposes the full heatsink to fan airflow but it doesnt really achieve any lower temperatures than the original shuttle setup and I really wanted to overclock my QX9650 to at least 3.6 ghz ,but temps under prime 95 where too hot for my taste. what you do get is a lower noise output for same cooling capacity, which is a step in the right direction as this set up is a lot quieter and easier to live with. This mod  should work a lot better with cpus with a lower TDP than my 130w for my QX9650, a Q9550 has 95w TDP,  which if under volted to 1.15 v should be equal to the Q9550S which has a TDP of 65w.




Having realized that trying to improve the cooling any further with the ICE cpu cooler  was a dead end, I started to research alternative cooling solutions,  a more efficient cpu cooler was needed, the current trend is for fairly large tower heatsinks with lots of fin area that will allow them to dissipate heat with a slow spinning fan, the problem is lack of space inside the shuttle, height  to be more specific, having removed the 3.5 drive bay, the maximum height available is 125mm, this seriously limits the choice of suitable coolers.  I decided to try a Noctua NH9-UB, after modifying mounting brackets I installed with the same 92mm pwm fans I had used on the Ice cooler and found a nice drop in temp under load, which allowed me to push my QX9650 to 3.8ghz, but I wondered if we could improve things further as the fans had to be at max revs to keeps temps under control with Prime95, still too hot for my liking , and thought what would be really nice would be to use 120mm fans, the larger fans would spin slower to move the same amount of air and should produce less noise in the process.  

I have tried several mods with varying degrees of success, but none was quiet enough for my liking , until now I think. And I believe it is applicable to all P2 systems, and possibly P1 also,since I had a SD31P case around and it shares similar dimensions and a lot of parts are interchangeable , My goal was quite simple, I wanted to achieve reasonable temps  and with low noise, with air cooling for the sake of simplicity. The mod requires certain sacrifices though, you will have to loose the 3.5” drive below the optical drive, and modify the chassis & cover , which will probably invalidate your warranty,  providing your ok with this you can make a substantial  improvement to the cooling  and make it quieter at the same time.

Continuation to follow
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jrturbo
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« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2009, 02:00:42 PM »

Continuation

The mod works by improving the airflow and the cooling efficiency , its main component is a 120mm fan, instead of the standard 92mm, and is helped in my case by aftermarket coolers for the cpu and graphic card.

1)    Modify the outer casing, this mod requires  you to cut out 2 windows at either side, the cover the windows with Mesh glued to inside, this will improve the case ventilation , which is vital if we want to make the most of a silent fan, I now believe that I could probably get away with smaller windows and achieve similar performance,  I still have my original case cover and I intend to modify it with smaller windows once I have figured out the optimum size.  I should also mention that having to large windows covered by mesh  will also make visible all the leds  fitted to the motherboard  and other components ,  in the dark you will be surprised.





2)    Remove the support for the original 92mm fan , simple as drilling the 2 rivets that secure it, this allows us  to install a 120mm fan that can move more air quietly than the smaller fan 92mm.




3)    Install a 120mm (25mm thick) fan, in order to make optimum use of the fan, you need to place the fan as low as possible, which may require  some minor mods depending on its design,  but basically you will probably need to remove plastic in the following areas in order to get the fan to sit as low as possible, in one corner,  this allows the fan to sit on the ram slot, I used a dremel  to remove plastic material from the fan frame,  and maybe  along certain parts of the frame which rest upon the higher placed electronic components on the motherboard,  the fan just fits in and in most cases will not require further efforts to retain it in place, as its located by the RAM slot at one end, and by the case at the other side,as its sits on top of the motherboard,at the top its rests upon the optical drive cage, those who wish  improve maters could try using blue tack, or some sponge, or any other means to secure the fan and also isolate any vibrations .



4)    To allow the fan to give us its full cooling potential you need to cut/remove the 3.5” drive cage  below the optical drive, I used a hacksaw , by doing this you make full use of the 120mm fan or the ice fan, by raising the internal  height, you remove the obstacles in the path of the fan and ICE cooler.  This will make the Shuttle ice cooler more efficient and compensate to a certain extent the loss of airspeed , this also provides sufficient space to try alternative CPU coolers or modify your original Shuttle ICE cooler. the drive cage you see in the photos is from the sd31p1, just in case the mod did not work out, it would have been nice if shuttle had made the drive cages modular, not everyone makes use of this 3.5" drive bay. The 120mm fan  will move a lot more air and over a wider area so the motherboard temps run lower , aided by the windows covered by mesh on the sides which allow the air to enter and escape more freely, the result; the general temp inside the case will be lower this will benefit all the components. Those wishing  to improve the cooling further will need to upgrade the CPU cooler and graphic card cooler if possible



5)    CPU cooler, either you modify your original ice cooler or you replace it with something better, The only modification I could come up with to improve the original ICE cooler was to remove the original 70mm fan and its shroud, make another shroud  for a 92mm fan from alu sheet  I had , I secured the shroud and fan to the heatsink with double sided tape ,this converts the ICE cooler into a proper push /pull fan configuration making optimum use of the full size of the heatsink, this will allow the Fans to run at lower rpm whilst providing reasonable cooling, if you undervolt the cpu also this will provide a fairly silent cooling solution for most CPU under 95w TDP



  Replacing the ICE cooler is a pain, because Shuttle has decided to stick with its own socket format,  and will require adapting the mounting hardware of which ever cooler you decide to use, in addition you have a limited space in which the cooler must physically fit,even having removed the 3.5” drive bay below the optical drive, the maximum height of the cooler if you wish to retain a standard optical drive is 125mm high and the maximum width 100mm, maybe a little more, the dimension restriction excludes a lot coolers and seriously limits your choices, I chose the Noctua NH9-UB, this cooler is far more efficient than the shuttle cooler , and so it should be with a lot more fin area to dispate the heat. The mounting bracket turned out quite easy to modify , as the shuttle socket happens to be a stretched socket 775 and by mixing the Intel & AMD hardware supplied by noctua,  all that was required was to cut off 2 studs from 775 suports and drill to holes to allow a couple bolts to pass through to replace the studs and it mates perfectly to the AMD supports screwed to the heatsink base, the Noctua NH9-UB design when combined with a 120mm fan  also allowed some of the airflow to pass under the finned area  and provides fresh air to cool down the mosfet heatsink , this in turn has lowered my motherboard, northbridge and southbridge temps.



To be continued
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Simpleofmind
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Join Date: Mar, 2008


« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2009, 10:16:40 PM »

Nice Jrturbo.  Great work.  After using the SP35P2V2 for a few days, I find the cooling of it very lacking.  I have the a 4870 in it also and a Q6600.  The temps I get under load is too hot for my liking.  Hell, they are close to dangerous.   I find this very useful and I was thinking of doing the samething.  I was thinking of cutting the sides and putting a mesh on both sides.  Then I saw this post and you got me wanting to change the HSF aslo.  I was wondering before I do start on mine, can you give me a little more detailed on how you made the mounting bracket fit for the Noctua.
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jrturbo
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Join Date: Jan, 2009


« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2009, 03:07:02 AM »

Hi there Simleofmind

the Noctua NH9-UB is supplied with mounting hardware for intel 775 and AMD2(+) , in order to install it in a shuttle motherboard you have to modify the 2 socket 775 brackets which bolt to the motherboard as per this photo



if you look at the photograph closely for the socket 775 mounting brackets, you will see on the right the bracket as it is supplied in the kit, you will need to remove the stud that is welded first, I used a hacksaw to cut it off, the next step is to drill a hole in the bracket which will be in line with holes for the motherboard mounting. on the left of the photo is the bracket with these mods carried out, you will need to do this to both the brackets. you will have to find screws of the right length and thread to replace the 2 studs which have been removed.

The next step is to mount the other half of the retention brackets to the Heatsink, but instead of using the intel 775 ones, you have use the AMD2 ones, because shuttle socket standard is like a stretched socket 775, and the 2 brackets will be further apart, and to compensate for this we use the AMD brackets which are longer as the intel 775 ones will be too short and the holes wont line up.



Here are the pdf instructions from Noctua

http://www.noctua.at/pdf/manuals/noctua_nh_u9b_manual_en.pdf

I hope this makes it clearer.

Regards

Joe Rubido
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Simpleofmind
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« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2009, 04:05:40 PM »

Hey Joe,

Thanks.  This clears it up alot.  I really appreciate you breaking this down in detail.  I guess I will have to do the mod this weekend.  Lets see how much I can accomplish.
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jrturbo
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Posts: 368

Join Date: Jan, 2009


« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2009, 04:53:27 AM »

Hi Guys

Here is an update, on the work in progress, I have modified my original case cover with smaller windows which look more discrete and hopefully wont run any hotter than with the previous setup, compare the photos ( excuse the quality of the photos , taken with my nokia N80 phone )



I have also taken some additional photos of the mods needed to the 120mm fan so its fits, its preferable to use a fan with a conventional frame design, you need to remove some material from the fan frame in a couple of place so it can sit as low as possible on the motherboard. you will need to remove the plastic  from one corner of the fan frame so it can sit on the outer 2 ram slots clips, and another cutout to clear a header plug on the motherboard



On the last photo you will see I have tried using a second 92mm fan on the noctua behing the 120mm fan, I havent noticed any real difference in temps to the cpu, but its hard to tell and my ambient temp are around 30º celsius, cpu idles at mid 40ºc and load temps under prime 95 just below 80ºc with the QX9650 @3.84 and 1.41 Vcore.

I will remove the second 92mm fan behind the 120mm fan and see if the temps remains the same this weekend

Regards

Joe Rubido
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jrturbo
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Join Date: Jan, 2009


« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2009, 10:23:03 AM »

Hi guys

surfing the net this afternoon I have found this mod to another P2 case, here is a scythe mini ninja installed, unfortunately its in german but there are plenty of pics, this was one of the coolers that was on my shortlist.

http://www.barebonecenter.de/images/stories/User2/etc/Anleitung.pdf

Regards

Joe Rubido
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robert09
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« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2009, 07:20:15 AM »

Looks great. Thanks for sharing some info and photos with us.

Regards,
Robert
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