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hydran
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« on: November 30, 2007, 01:00:38 AM » |
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7119399.stmwtf is wrong with people - this is quite obviously a sweet old lady who presumably was ignorant of this particular blasphemy and if you'd just told her nicely that one could get 40 lashes for this, she would have immediately said that she was terribly sorry and would be more careful in future. I am guessing that countless well-meaning teachers across the globe are now rethinking going to the Sudan and other fundamentalist states if this is the treatment they are going to receive. Edit: I'm glad that the Muslim Council of Britain has been quick to speak out against this issue: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7119917.stm
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Intuit
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« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2007, 03:54:00 AM » |
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Over here some people get in a real tissy because they thing The Golden Rule is "Anti-God" as they put it... but nobody goes to jail over it. That's the difference between a theocracy and secular government. ...but many people here just don't understand that and honestly want religious mythology to be taught in school science classes; putting us ever closer to the ultimate goal of Government sanctioned religion.
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MrbLOB9000
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« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2007, 05:00:24 AM » |
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ya, kinda F' other countries, especially shitty third world countries where all the people have is religion to keep them going and religion is directly integrated into the countries laws. *shakes head*
This Polish guy that's been going to the store I work at for years, hadn't seen him in a while and he came in the other day and I ask what he'd been up to and he said he was in prison for 6 months in Poland because of a documentary he did. From what I could understand, he showed Jewish police that had guns in the documentary, and it's illegal for them to have them, even though they have freedom of speech, because he made the documentary with that in it, he was accused of antisemitism which is illegal apparently, so he was in jail for 6 months. If that's actually how that went down, holy shit wtf. I guess that's kinda more so about F' other countries than religion specifically.
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Intuit
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« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2007, 06:07:27 AM » |
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Reflex
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« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2007, 06:23:37 AM » |
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Its things like this that make me push back hard every time the Intelligent Design folks try to push Creationism into schools. All religions are potentially dangerous when enacted as law.
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MrbLOB9000
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« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2007, 08:42:35 AM » |
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ya, people said that The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe was anti-god and all this, but C.S. Lewis was christian and the lion dude who's name I can't remeber basically symbolizes Jesus! It's good anyway though.  edit: ya, I was wondering wtf you were talking about with that gold rule thing! made zero sense! |
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hydran
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« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2007, 09:11:41 AM » |
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no such thing as bad publicity? |
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Intuit
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« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2007, 06:03:42 PM » |
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I heard they named the Teddy Bear after a popular student and not after the prophet. While the Government is seeking to prosecute her, I'm wondering about the level of support that she is receiving from the people locally there in Sudan. Interviews with other school officials, students, community representatives, etcetera. International medias are known for going out of their way to get the most radical opinions and dissent. (and in some cases even staging it)
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rrussell
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« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2007, 06:13:59 PM » |
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Wait, you can name a person Mohammed, but not a teddy bear?
I would think that the arrogance of naming your CHILD after the great prophet would be lashworthy as well.
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Intuit
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« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2007, 07:01:48 PM » |
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Crowds of people have marched in the Sudanese capital Khartoum to call for a tougher sentence for a UK teacher jailed for insulting religion. So you believe that is the opinion of everyone there ? Medias are supposed to cover the local views from peoples on both sides of the fence... and even those sitting on it. Interviews from her students, their parents, other school officials and the local community. For nearly every protest, there are counter-protesters as well. Where are they ? I'm sorry but not everyone is so unilaterally minded and holds radical views. But I suppose, ravings equal ratings, no ? (raving and rantings) |
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Intuit
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« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2007, 07:07:52 PM » |
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Wait, you can name a person Mohammed, but not a teddy bear?
I would think that the arrogance of naming your CHILD after the great prophet would be lashworthy as well. Yeah you would think... but then the mythology types {keeps opinion to self}. Did a name search for the 50 states on "Jesus" and it returned this "Too many JESUS listings found!". LOL... |
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hydran
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« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2007, 07:09:20 PM » |
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agogley
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« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2007, 07:31:22 PM » |
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"ya, people said that The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe was anti-god and all this, but C.S. Lewis was christian and the lion dude who’s name I can’t remeber basically symbolizes Jesus! It’s good anyway though. "
C.S. Lewis was a very popular Christian who's writings clearly reflected a pro-Christian theme. The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe was specifically meant to be an allegory of Christianity. And although some Christians were not comfortable with the Lewis' use of witchcraft, the work itself is clearly meant to be pro-Christian.
The Golden Compass is a movie based on a series of books written by an agnostic/athiest who has very publicly stated that his books are designed to be anti-thetical to everything Christian. From my reading of the movie reviews, the Golden Compass doesn't have anything necessarily overtly anti-Christian, the books themselves are very clearly designed to be anti-Christian.
"but many people here just don’t understand that and honestly want religious mythology to be taught in school science classes; putting us ever closer to the ultimate goal of Government sanctioned religion. "
I assume that by "here" you are referring to the USA? I also assume that you know that the people who want "religious mythology" to be taught don't believe that it is mythology?
"Its things like this that make me push back hard every time the Intelligent Design folks try to push Creationism into schools."
I'm glad you say this. I wish more heathen were more open about their intentions and beliefs. Fortunately for you, I think ID was designed to fail from the get go. I believe it represents some attempt to secularize Creationism and find some middle ground. There can't be a middle ground. Either you believe in Creation or you don't. Either you believe Jesus is God's son whom he sent to die for our sins, or you don't.
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Intuit
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« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2007, 07:37:15 PM » |
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(sniping at the media not you Hydran...)
Um, the article subheads, "Parental complaints" in bold then fails to list one iota or instance of a Parent complaining. Huh ?
Was this it <>[/size] ?
<>
Wow they got just one student's opinion and are still missing the opinions of other teachers and school officials + other local community members. Instead they go some probably hundred miles away and prefer to cover a bunch of know-nothing radicals who believed only what they heard in the Sudanese government-sanctioned media report and think she's a mass-murderer of Teddy Bears.
These folks are amazing but the Sudhanese Government, it's media and our international medias are trying hard to make a bad situation worse.
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Intuit
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« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2007, 07:41:29 PM » |
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"but many people here just don’t understand that and honestly want religious mythology to be taught in school science classes; putting us ever closer to the ultimate goal of Government sanctioned religion. "
I assume that by "here" you are referring to the USA? I also assume that you know that the people who want "religious mythology" to be taught don't believe that it is mythology? LOL at you calling Reflex a "heathen". :lol: Yeah I know... their Zues is Jesus... right ?  Oh that's right, they're monothiests versus polythiests. Big difference that is... |
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agogley
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« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2007, 08:05:15 PM » |
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"Instead they go some probably hundred miles away and prefer to cover a bunch of know-nothing radicals who believed only what they heard in the Sudanese government-sanctioned media report and think she’s a mass-murderer of Teddy Bears. "
From reading the news reports at Fox News, it's apparently a violation of law to name animals Mohammed. You can give men the name, but not anything else. So regardless of the intent, it is a crime to insult Islam by naming a teddy bear Mohammed. It really has nothing to do with killing animals or teddy bears but of committing heresy by giving an animal (even if inanimate) the name Mohammed.
"LOL at you calling Reflex a “heathenâ€. "
No worries, Intuit...He's got plenty of company around here.
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hydran
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« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2007, 08:14:21 PM » |
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"From reading the news reports at Fox News, it's apparently a violation of law to name animals Mohammed. You can give men the name, but not anything else. So regardless of the intent, it is a crime to insult Islam by naming a teddy bear Mohammed. It really has nothing to do with killing animals or teddy bears but of committing heresy by giving an animal (even if inanimate) the name Mohammed. ...and the point is that this was an westerner (albeit ignorant of Muslim traditions) there to help the children by teaching them what she knew about. Surely the tolerant way to handle this would have been to explain her mistake to her, thereby educating her in that part of Islamic teaching. If she continued to blaspheme in this way, then she can take the punishment, but is she really supposed to learn every possible blasphemy to avoid before going over there to help the kids? |
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hydran
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« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2007, 09:10:29 PM » |
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Reflex
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« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2007, 09:43:56 PM » |
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Agogley - You do realize that I am a christian, and in fact a minister as well? Many of us feel that Genesis, which is a collection of Sumerian(and older) stories later adopted by the Hebrews does not have to be perfectly literal in order for Jesus to be the son of God. In fact, your brand of Christianity would probably be considered the minority, even here in the US. Since I am a 'heathen' to you, does that make you a 'cultist' to me, since obviously I'm far more in the mainstream than you are, yet you consider my beliefs to be so distant as to be a heathen?
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ScutMonkey
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« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2007, 11:33:14 PM » |
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...and the point is that this was an westerner (albeit ignorant of Muslim traditions) there to help the children by teaching them what she knew about. Surely the tolerant way to handle this would have been to explain her mistake to her, thereby educating her in that part of Islamic teaching. If she continued to blaspheme in this way, then she can take the punishment, but is she really supposed to learn every possible blasphemy to avoid before going over there to help the kids?
1. You're assuming tolerance is important in this culture/theocracy. Remember, this is the same country which is under investigation over Darfur genocides. 2. Even the West believes "ignorance of the law is no excuse." The quest is really the severity (or even the necessity) of the penalty. But hey, it's their country and we have no right to intrude on their laws and cultural doctrines. Right guys! So sorry lady, but if they decide to execute you then good luck! |
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hydran
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« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2007, 12:03:55 AM » |
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...we have a duty to our citizens (she is a UK national, I am assuming) when they get tangled up in this kind of trouble - if the Sudanese want to live under these laws, then I suppose it is their business.
I was thinking though, the outcry if a teacher from a different country came to the UK or US and started teaching the kids in THEIR cultural ways, think of something like a North Korean who started getting a load of infants to believe in communist ideals or something, maybe there would be an outcry to remove the teacher and make an example of them too?
I guess it would never go as far as death threats.
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agogley
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« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2007, 12:18:57 AM » |
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"From reading the news reports at Fox News, it's apparently a violation of law to name animals Mohammed. You can give men the name, but not anything else. So regardless of the intent, it is a crime to insult Islam by naming a teddy bear Mohammed. It really has nothing to do with killing animals or teddy bears but of committing heresy by giving an animal (even if inanimate) the name Mohammed. ...and the point is that this was an westerner (albeit ignorant of Muslim traditions) there to help the children by teaching them what she knew about. Surely the tolerant way to handle this would have been to explain her mistake to her, thereby educating her in that part of Islamic teaching. If she continued to blaspheme in this way, then she can take the punishment, but is she really supposed to learn every possible blasphemy to avoid before going over there to help the kids? I agree that the whole thing is ridiculous. I was just clarifying the issue as far as what the Muslims were saying. |
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agogley
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« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2007, 12:21:01 AM » |
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...and the point is that this was an westerner (albeit ignorant of Muslim traditions) there to help the children by teaching them what she knew about. Surely the tolerant way to handle this would have been to explain her mistake to her, thereby educating her in that part of Islamic teaching. If she continued to blaspheme in this way, then she can take the punishment, but is she really supposed to learn every possible blasphemy to avoid before going over there to help the kids?
1. You're assuming tolerance is important in this culture/theocracy. Remember, this is the same country which is under investigation over Darfur genocides. 2. Even the West believes "ignorance of the law is no excuse." The quest is really the severity (or even the necessity) of the penalty. But hey, it's their country and we have no right to intrude on their laws and cultural doctrines. Right guys! So sorry lady, but if they decide to execute you then good luck! I agree with #1. Tolerance and forgiveness is not important to them. On #2, that depends on the crime. Many crimes require intent in order for them to be a crime. |
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agogley
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« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2007, 01:22:14 AM » |
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Agogley - You do realize that I am a christian, and in fact a minister as well? Yes, we've had conversations about faith in the past. I'm aware of your views. And you know then that the view of teachers who espouse un-Biblical views is worse than that of a lay person. That you have had theological training (I'm working under the assumption that as a "minister" you attended seminary somewhere) is only further testament to the ecumenical slide of the seminaries that claim to teach Protestant theology (again assuming you went to a Protestant seminary). Many of us feel that Genesis, which is a collection of Sumerian(and older) stories later adopted by the Hebrews does not have to be perfectly literal in order for Jesus to be the son of God. In fact, your brand of Christianity would probably be considered the minority, even here in the US. I don't know who "us" is, but most Christians wouldn't know a Sumerian from a fig tree. I'd agree that many Christians do not believe that Genesis is literal (although I'd say that very few attribute the creation account and historical narrative of Genesis to adaptation of Sumerian stories). And there is a very large majority of Christians that believe in the completely literal version of Genesis. I'd hardly call literal Creationinsts to be a minority. Regardless, it matters not to me. Theological error is still error no matter how many believe it. That many people believe it is neither compelling nor evidence of truth. Rather the opposite...the Bible warns us about being too popular. I personally would be very wary of anything that most of the world is very comfortable with. ...Since I am a ‘heathen’ to you, does that make you a ‘cultist’ to me... Does it? How would I know what you call me? Fundamentalist...cultist...it matters not to me. In fact, I accept such labels with great joy. And my using "heathen" was...generous. ...I’m far more in the mainstream than you are, yet you consider my beliefs to be so distant as to be a heathen? Actually, I don't believe your beliefs fit within what one would consider mainstream Christianity today, at least not mainstream Protestant Christianity. But even if they do, it doesn't matter to me. Just because everyone else is going to hell, hardly means I should follow. As a Reformed Protestant it is my obligation to point out error. People can claim to believe all kinds of things. "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder." It doesn't mean somebody is any more saved than a toad. |
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