SX38P2 Pro - Help with temps

[Martane]

Hey all,

I've mentioned my problems in a couple of threads since I first came across them on Friday. I built my new shuttle (spec in my sig) last Wednesday, and was running it fine up until Friday evening. Point to note is, that the most intensive thing I ran on it before my problem occurred was Half Life 2.

So... my problem. I bought Call of Duty 4 on Friday, installed it, played the first mission, then at some point (can't remember exactly when) it froze. I've been having the same problems playing COD4 since then. I can play for about an average of 15 minutes before the system craps up and either locks, or automatically restarts. When the error occurs, 75% of the time it locks an requires a manual restart, the other 25% it restarts automatically.

I originally thought the problem was due to COD4 itself, but I have found the same error to show itself whilst running 3DMark03 and some of the intensive maps in Counter Strike Source. I believe the problem is down to temperatures.

Please help me to understand how the fans work in a standard build without modification (which is the case for my build). The following diagram shows the fans that I believe to be the most important. I've left out the PSU fan and the two smaller fans above it.



From original configuration when received, am I right in thinking that this is the way my fans will distribute heat?

With the help of LaserCobra's thread regarding SpeedFan config, I have the following readings. This first picture is from within 5 minutes of booting up the system.



Temp2 appears to be the motherboard/chipset temps.

This second screenshot was taken after I minimised COD4 after playing for approximately 15 minutes.



Temp2 has gone up quite a bit, and is now marked with a flame next to it.

Based on this, and I may be completely wrong, I think the chipset is overheating and locking up/shutting down my system. If anybody has any alternative views, I'd appreciate hearing them.

I've heard that reversing the ICE fans may help resolve heat issues within the case. Could somebody out there please explain how to go about doing this?

Many thanks

Tane

[Salamander]

Also could be your HD? (place the HD in the cage (coolest place (at least with older shuttle's it is) (that model got a cage or not?).
Although if it's only with games then it's probably your videocard. Also remove the cover (hd gets much cooler then) and see if it helps.

[Sandtiger]

HDD temp is only 28C on the 2nd one and 24C on the first one. At least that is what speedfan sees.

[Salamander]

Yea but speedfan mostly got it wrong. Temp reading is ok but what it IS (cpu/hd etc) speedfan mostly got it wrong. (At least with my sn25p.., maybe not yours).

[chumbawumba]

@Martane

I'm starting to think about the air flow in the case. I have a 3870 Atomic, better cooling however no external exhaust...

On you diagram you seem to be forgetting the top & PSU fans.
As a start a suggestion would be consider sellotaping (internally) the top perferations on the left and right to make the 2 small fans more effective.
Also 53oC for you motherboard temp!  mine never goes above 34oC and my celeron & RAM are running at 1066 (1:1).
Here I recommend turning your CPU fans around, else check your oasis heatsinks are thermal pasted onto the chipset.... Something is very wrong here...

Your PSU fan is doing nearly 4000RPM!! er.. isn't it a bit noisy...
You case is obviously suffering from negative pressure as everything is blowing out.  
I personally think the loser in this case will always be the PSU Fan, as it is the weakest.
I have had 3 crashes, all when my wife has been playing SIM2 maxed out for 3-4 hours.
At that time the PSU fan is also 4000RPM and not so nice...

My final thoughts are:
Turn the CPU fans to blow in  OR  Turn the PSU fan to blow in.

The second option is not recommended unless you REALLY know what you're doing...
I like the fact the CPU fan blows out but...hmmm
Does anybody know how the PSU Fan is controlled, Thermistor (ie. Temp) & where the temo sensor is located.  If the fan is turned and the thermistor is located in the fan itself then the result will not be good...

[hnyman]

Temp2 has gone up quite a bit, and is now marked with a flame next to it.

Based on this, and I may be completely wrong, I think the chipset is overheating and locking up/shutting down my system. If anybody has any alternative views, I'd appreciate hearing them.

I've heard that reversing the ICE fans may help resolve heat issues within the case. Could somebody out there please explain how to go about doing this?

I have a few comments to you based on my own SP35P2.

1) Most recent public Speedfan 4.33 has CPU core temps wrongin newest Shuttles: It has them with  a -15'C offset. (and maybe for that reason some people boast here very low core temps...). the most recent beta version 4.34beta38 has the core temps correctly. Please see the following picture where I have them running at the same time side by side in my SP35P ;-)


2) I believe that Temp2 is NOT chipset temp, but is the CPU casing temp in SP35P, which temp would be displayed with a +15'C offset. At least for me (SP35P & E6750) it seems to move so much in tandem with CPU core temps, that I find it hard to believe that it would be chipset/motherboard temp. Look to your speedfan graphs and test with CPU only load (CPU-burn-in test programs etc.).
http://www.sudhian.com/index.php?/forums/viewpost/883139/

3) I believe in your basic thought that the heat should be transferred quickly out of the PC. Reversing the CPU fans would lead all the CPU heat into inside the case, and that sounds strange. Your original picture shows in my mind the basic idea very well: just transfer the CPU and GPU heat directly out.  (The question if you need additional airflow to cool chipset is then a different question.)

----
My newest text about my config can be found from the following thread:
http://www.sudhian.com/index.php?/forums/viewthread/101537/P15/#884087

Currently only three temps have impacts on fan speeds:
Core1 and Core2 --> Fan1/Speed1 (CPU-in) and Fan2/Speed2 (CPU-out)
Temp1 = System temp --> Fan3/Speed3
All other temp/speed/fan combinations are unchecked.

So, CPU core temps do control CPU fans, and system temp controls back top fans.

[Martane]

Thanks to all who have replied.

Hnyman, I believe you are correct. Temp2 in my screenshots is the CPU. I just ran a stress test on the CPU and Temp2 shot up to the mid-high fifties. Going by your remarks about SpeedFans offset, that would make the actual temp around 70C yeah? When I stopped the stress test, the temperature went back down.

So the problem appears to now be CPU related. God, I love diagnosing problems!!!

[daffy67]

I'll bet it's your video card.
My 3870 fan would not spin up beyond the default 37% when gaming, when the GPU core hits 90c or more, VPU halt kicks in halts the GPU core.
Use Coretemp to get your CPU temps, then compare to speedfan values and map accordingly.

[hnyman]

Hnyman, I believe you are correct. Temp2 in my screenshots is the CPU. I just ran a stress test on the CPU and Temp2 shot up to the mid-high fifties. Going by your remarks about SpeedFans offset, that would make the actual temp around 70C yeah? When I stopped the stress test, the temperature went back down.

I have currently idle core temps 38'C and 39'C. Although Speedfan 4.34beta38 shows the CPU Case temp (Temp2) as 53'C, I believe it to actually be 15'C degrees less than shown = about 38 degrees.
Then it would match the core temps, which is logical and it should probably always be 0-2 degrees below the actual core's temperatures.

I am not quite sure how Speedfan shows your values. You should compare the Speedfan reading with the Coretemp 0.96.1 (http://www.alcpu.com/CoreTemp/ ) reading in order to see what are the correct actual temps for the cores. Then the CPU case temp (Temp2) should be maybe 0-2 below the average of your cores' temps. It might be that SF 4.33 shows your core's temp 15 degrees too low, but the correct CPU Case / Temp2 reading. I am not familiar with the Quads, so I try not to guess too much.

I suggest that you read the following excellent guide to Intel CPU temps. It gives lots of useful information, i.e. about offsets, and has also good discussion. Two slightly different versions:
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=543522
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/221745-11-core-temperature-guide

From the guide:

Section 1: Introduction

Intel provides separate thermal specifications for 2 different sensor types; a single Case Thermal Diode located within the CPU die between the Cores, and Digital Thermal Sensors located within each Core. The Case Thermal Diode measures Tcase (Temperature Case), which is commonly known as CPU temp, and the Digital Thermal Sensors measure Tjunction (Temperature Junction), which is commonly known as Core temp.
...

Section 4: Thermal Flow
 
Heat originates within the Cores, where Tjunction sensors are located within the hot spots of each Core. From the bottom of the Cores, heat dissipates throughout the CPU Case, which creates a thermal gradient toward the center of the Die, where the Tcase sensor is located. Heat then dissipates through the socket and motherboard to air inside the computer case. From the top of the Cores, heat dissipates through the Integrated Heat Spreader and CPU cooler to air inside the computer case. Safe and sustainable temperatures are determined by CPU cooling efficiency, computer case cooling efficiency, Ambient temperature, Vcore, clock speed, Stepping and Load. Tjunction is always higher than Tcase, and Tcase is always higher than Ambient.

[Martane]

Okay. I took the Shuttle apart, took the CPU out and cleaned it, then went through the process of installing it again. It didn't look like it needed to be done, but better safe than sorry.

Still getting the same error.



Just took this comparison between the two versions of SpeedFan. I tried to install CoreTemp but it just tells me that the drivers could not be installed... possibly because I'm running Vista 64-Bit.

Really getting concerned about this.

[hnyman]

Just took this comparison between the two versions of SpeedFan. I tried to install CoreTemp but it just tells me that the drivers could not be installed... possibly because I'm running Vista 64-Bit.

Really getting concerned about this.

About what?

I guess that your temp2 is shown 15 degrees too high (like it is for me), and that the true CPU case temp is 48-15 = 33 degrees (about 5 degrees below cores).

[Martane]

Just took this comparison between the two versions of SpeedFan. I tried to install CoreTemp but it just tells me that the drivers could not be installed... possibly because I'm running Vista 64-Bit.

Really getting concerned about this.

About what?

I guess that your temp2 is shown 15 degrees too high (like it is for me), and that the true CPU case temp is 48-15 = 33 degrees (about 5 degrees below cores).

I'm concerned about what is causing my system to halt whilst under heavy load. It now appears that the CPU isn't the case at all. And I'm back to square one.

Thanks for everybodys input btw. It's much appreciated.

[sesh]

You could try using RivaTuner to increase the fan speed on your 3870. Also, isn't there some kind of BIOS problem with some cards that stops the fan from spinning up when it needs to (as daffy mentioned)? I could be wrong.

[Martane]

You could try using RivaTuner to increase the fan speed on your 3870. Also, isn't there some kind of BIOS problem with some cards that stops the fan from spinning up when it needs to (as daffy mentioned)? I could be wrong.

I don't think the graphics card is the problem. The fan certainly spins at what seems to be full speed anyways.

I played COD4 with the case off last night and set my camera phone up at the side of the case recording a video (sad, I know). Fans were all operating normally as I'd expect them to.

[hnyman]

I'm concerned about what is causing my system to halt whilst under heavy load. It now appears that the CPU isn't the case at all. And I'm back to square one.

Thanks for everybodys input btw. It's much appreciated.

You might try to stress test the system with/without graphics load (like games) for trying to identify the culprit.

Daffy67's suggestion in the thread about X3870 being overheating may be quite valid:
http://www.sudhian.com/index.php?/forums/viewpost/885134/

[sesh]

You could try using RivaTuner to increase the fan speed on your 3870. Also, isn't there some kind of BIOS problem with some cards that stops the fan from spinning up when it needs to (as daffy mentioned)? I could be wrong.

I don't think the graphics card is the problem. The fan certainly spins at what seems to be full speed anyways.

I played COD4 with the case off last night and set my camera phone up at the side of the case recording a video (sad, I know). Fans were all operating normally as I'd expect them to.

And did it crash?

[Martane]

You could try using RivaTuner to increase the fan speed on your 3870. Also, isn't there some kind of BIOS problem with some cards that stops the fan from spinning up when it needs to (as daffy mentioned)? I could be wrong.

I don't think the graphics card is the problem. The fan certainly spins at what seems to be full speed anyways.

I played COD4 with the case off last night and set my camera phone up at the side of the case recording a video (sad, I know). Fans were all operating normally as I'd expect them to.

And did it crash?

It did eventually yes. I started recording when I booted up, then loaded up COD4 and started playing. Crashed around the 15 minute mark, fans still spinning. Required a manual reboot.

[sesh]

Btw, I have the SX38P2 as well. Pretty much the same spec as you but with a Q6700 and a 3870x2 and I don't have any problems running COD4 or Crysis (well, except for performance problems in the latter!). Just so you have some kind of comparison.

[Martane]

I have successfully been able to complete a run through in 3DMark03 since I reinstalled the CPU (Got 32768 btw). So that's a positive.

Going to try loading up COD4 again in a minute.

[daffy67]

You need to install Rivatuner to monitor the GPU temps and fan speeds, just because you see it spinning means nil as it will still spin at the default speed.
Watch for a pattern of temp rise/lock up, Rivatuner can log these if the system crashes before you get to see a readout.
Don't forget, if your playing and alt-tab out back to Windows to check the GPU temp will drop fairly quickly.

[Martane]

I've tried installing Rivatuner and ATItool, but I am unable to run them. I think this is because I am running Vista Ultimate 64.

Anyways, I perfomed a stress test in Everest, and came up with the follwing screenshot.



So, it's basically everything running at full except the graphics card... for a full hour. More than twice the time I've been able to run COD4 without crashing. Now... I'd hate to jump to a conclusion seeing as I've been wrong more than once in the past week. But does this now look like a problen with the graphics card?

Thoughts anyone?

[Carlson]

I have the same issue on the SP35P2 model with COD4 (reboots). I do have a full ATX PSU that I may try using off to the side this weekednd to test that theory.  Other thory I have is the chipset getting too hot.  Reversed fans have little effect and do not prevent the reboot. Also have the eVGA 8800GT so video does not seem to be a common factor. CPU temps are about the same.

SP35P2 Pro / C2D E8400 / eVGA 8800GT 512MB / 4GB G-Skill PC8000

[daffy67]

But does this now look like a problen with the graphics card?

As i have suggested, if i don't manually set my fan speed the GPU just gets too hot.

What version of Rivatuner are you using?
Are you having a driver signing issue with it?
Riva won't hold my fan speed i have to reset it at each boot, but my Shuttle is 24/7 so i don't reboot much.


To disable driver signing:
Turn off Digital Driver Signing Check in Vista:

1. Create a shortcut on the desktop to cmd.exe

2. Right-click on the shortcut and select Run as administrator

3. When the command window opens, type or paste the following and press ENTER:

bcdedit.exe /set nointegritychecks ON
bcdedit.exe /set loadoptions DDISABLE_INTEGRITY_CHECKS

4. Reboot

Note: Make sure you don't have any of the following updates installed

KB932596
KB938979
KB938194

These all reinforce driver integrity checks. So uninstall them from the Add/Remove Programs section if they are there.

From http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=81852&page=12

[Carlson]

Well my 8800GT is runing cool but I have the same issue so I do not think this is the case. Alsol when graphics card gets too hot is general creates artifacts on the screen - I have not gotten them.

[daffy67]

It may well be something else, regardless the ATI GPU temp should be checked anyway, just as a process of elimination.