Vista Isn't Bad

[hugh]

indeed, for me, my job is manual labour, my computer is for msn, internet, gaming and films, so for me, regardless of whether mac OSX is really that wonderful after using it enough, windows is my prefered OS, but for someone such as yourself weho plays WoW and i assume does a lot of written work and such on your travels (you seem to be everywhere) windows for gaming is not needed. i would really love to be able to install M$, mac, linux, and not have to think "but i can't do xyz with this OS so i won't be able ti use it"

[OldDummy]

you are welcome to your opinion Hugh

Actually I side with Hugh..mostly.

While not "junk", when you get down to the basic system you can't compare a pc with a apple.

with just about any known benchmark, except jobs strange ones, a high end pc wipes the floor with macs for much less money.

Nobody can dispute that, except jobs,....can they?

Now style.....thats a different story.

Like a BMW vs an old mustang with a big block in it. Sort of...

OD

[Ashtefere]

Although, with a mac you are also paying for the R&D for the OS AND the OS.
With a pc you dont. Most pc users think of the price of windows separately. A comparible Windows OS to Mac OSX leopard, in a vista user's opinion would be vista ulltimate RETAIL (you cannot migrate an oem vista) plus, with OSX you get unlimited home licenses...
How much is a vlk kit for vista?
When you think about all that... yeah, macs wipe the floor with pc for value. And with value, im also talking about the "just works" factor.
Which is a biggie if your buying retail.
-Ash

[Intuit]

http://pcmcia-cs.sourceforge.net/ftp/doc/PCMCIA-HOWTO-5.html

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.17/+bug/63418

Generally speaking there is just too much stated that has been incorrect in these last couple of pages to even begin to comment on.  No, modern dual-core machines aren't slow with Vista.  Yes, readyboost is unnecessary when you already have >1GB of RAM to begin with.  Literally everytime you install a program 3rd-party manufacturers (QuickTime, Sun, Adobe, Synaptics, Logitech, NVidia, ATI, Dell, Compaq, Nero, Roxio, etcetera....) will have some useless app running in the background.  All of your RAM is consumed by disk caches.  The necessary RAM is instantly freed the nanosecond you launch an application.  There's so much more that I could comment on.

Generally on a live dvd mef, linux should have every driver there is for just about all the hardware a home pc (or whatever pc the distro is targeted at) could possibly have.  ...........

Bootup Windows in safe mode and you'd have the same thing.  Before someone says they've crashed trying to boot in safemode, that's virtually always drive/memory/hardware/file-corruption related.  There are also plenty of live windows CDs - see BartPE.  Every piece of hardware is supported, but you only have access to their most basic of features.  Safe Mode by the way inentionally tries to eliminate 3rd-party drivers so as to decrease the chance that incompatibilities will create fault.  This is why "Safe Mode with Networking" is an option rather than a requirement.  Also keep in mind that much of XP's size, as the Preinstallation Environment shows, is backups and caches.  (because 3rd-party programs wreak havoc, overwriting files unnecessarily installing themselves as services and changing the registry all the time)  The core OS itself is very, very lean, likely more-so than Linux.

The only thing that I KNOW isnt supported is legacy geforce stuff (4mx, 3 and under) and most ati stuff (cos they are arrogant ).
Not much reasearch is required on parts compatibility for linux. You can do such a test yourself. Grab any live dvd of any home distro off the web and throw it in, reboot, and see what hardware works.
You would be surprised.
-Ash

Intuit: Im talking full fledged operation drivers. As for my comment about non supported things, that just means those cards wont run compiz 'out of the box'... you need to go to the web to download the drivers.
It would be like booting up windows the first time with all the latest nvidia/mobo/sata/audio drivers all installed and ready to go.
No, its not the same thing as safe mode. Not even close. Please refrain from commenting on something unless you have tried it, and used it.
-Ash

Ack!  Lost my reply.  Rebuilding...

Note, I'm not knocking Linux it's great and I use it on occassion but it does face many of the same issues of compatibility, support and stability that other operating systems face.  However thanks to the community as an operating system it's far more flexible than Operating Systems offered by major corporations.  As far as a full-fledged ACPI operating sytem running from CD (not even a DvD), nothing surpasses it.

Correction1:  http://www.sudhian.com/index.php?/forums/viewthread/101869/P15/ (One of) Mefistofeles's points was there are a lot of hardware combinations that are unsupported or require extra support.  For example:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.17/+bug/63418   For example, I own an Rx580: http://www.tjrforum.com/showthread.php?t=2943

Correction2:  I've used every one that I've commented on including Atari, Linux (Ubuntu), Apple and Microsoft Operating Systems.  Certainly doesn't mean I know it all and yes I'll make mistakes but please refrain from making assumptions based on what you'd like to be true.

Correction3:  Granted, it's not exactly "the same as Safe Mode".  Clarifying...  Safe Mode supports only the basic features of basic hardware by design and is therefore able to universally support the same hardware using the same or similar set of drivers.  The drivers written by the Linux community do not always support the full feature set of a given piece of hardware either; which ordinarily would be had the drivers been released by the manufacturer.
  Example: http://ticc.mines.edu/csm/wiki/index.php/Linux_Problems
  Safe mode by the way also allows you the ability to access the internet and download more recent drivers.  Granted that's not an option in a live setup though.

My bad if I came off a bit crass though...

[Ashtefere]

No prob intuit... though you cannot use safemode to access the internet or network
-Ash

[Mefistofeles]

Since I was the one who started this thread I feel that I can update everyone on how my experience with Vista is progressing.

Anyway I have two machines with Vista one with the 32 bit OS and the other with the 64 bit OS.  The 64 bit machine is faster of course its overclocked(3.2 GHZ quad core) and has DDR 1066 memory so the comparison is more like Apples and Oranges.  However the 32 bit machine still fairly snappy.

As far as software is concerned I'm quite impressed with the 32 and even the 64 bit machine.  Vista Business 32 seems to be able to run Office 2000 and Visual Fox Pro 6. without any dificulties.  The generic print driver was also adequate for the dot matrix printer.   No special patches were needed.

Vista 64 on the other hand has been more troublesome, but this was to be expected.  Acrobat Professional 8.0 didn't function until I applied both a Microsoft patch and the Acrobat 8.1 update.   However afterwards it worked perfectly.  In addition during installation I had an issue with a missing .dll.  Vista 64 needs a .dll found in the X-64 folder of Acrobat Professional 8.0.

The only problem I have run into with the 64 bit version is with the print drivers.  Make sure you have 64 bit print drivers, which I do.  Other than that Vista 64 seems to be working like a charm.

It works with what I use at work.  What more do I need?

(One of) Mefistofeles’s points was there are a lot of hardware combinations that are unsupported or require extra support.  For example:  

Actually this is what I said:

I would imagine that anyone who puts together a Linux machine probably does ALOT of research before they start mixing and matching parts.  I would imagine its probably important whether or not you can get drivers in Linux and to make sure they are interoperable with the various hardware systems and insure that they work.

What I am implying is that Linux is probably more reliable because the people who use it tend to know more about computers than your average Windows user.  I'm sure Linux probably has interoperability problems but havomg a much more technical user base probably helps ALOT.

Its a perfect example of what's called Adverse Selection in the insurance industry.  In this case the easiest operating system is going to attract the dumbest users.  

Let's be honest how many of us believe that you have to have even average intelligence or technical skill to use Vista?

[Reflex]

No prob intuit... though you cannot use safemode to access the internet or network
-Ash

Yes you can, when you press F8 you get the option to load Safe Mode with Network Support as one of the options.

[Ashtefere]

Reflex, that isnt safemode is it? that is "safe mode with networking"... try using an unactivated locked windows xp in "safe mode with networking" to try and establish connection settings to activate windows online. It says "no".
Safemode with networking is not safe mode.
-Ash

[Intuit]

(One of) Mefistofeles’s points was there are a lot of hardware combinations that are unsupported or require extra support.  For example:  

Actually this is what I said:

I would imagine that anyone who puts together a Linux machine probably does ALOT of research before they start mixing and matching parts.  I would imagine its probably important whether or not you can get drivers in Linux and to make sure they are interoperable with the various hardware systems and insure that they workd.

What I am implying is that Linux is probably more reliable because the people who use it tend to know more about computers than your average Windows user.  I'm sure Linux probably has interoperability problems but havomg a much more technical user base probably helps ALOT.

Its a perfect example of what's called Adverse Selection in the insurance industry.  In this case the easiest operating system is going to attract the dumbest users.  

Let's be honest how many of us believe that you have to have even average intelligence or technical skill to use Vista?

You don't remember this quote Mefistofeles ?
>>"Granted there is alot of stuff that does go wrong with Windows, been there a few times myself.  But there are a near infinite number of permuatations and configurations that Microsoft simply can’t test for.  I have seen the weirdest things go wrong.  I had one computer that hated APC’s Powerchute program.  It took me alot of trouble shooting to figure this out but there are too many hardware combinations possible in the Wintel world. "

[Intuit]

OD - That list may have been long but I'd say 1 in 10 of those games are ones anyone would have cared about.

BTW, I do agree that Vista runs best with 2GB of mem.  Fortunatly you can have that for less than $40, even for a laptop.

Okay my reply was screwed again.  Gonna go download Opera now...

Yeah you're right.  Scratch the ">1GB".  The 32-bit version of Vista consumes less but using the 64-bit version right now ~1.2GB has been committed while running only a relative few apps and all features including aero having been enabled.  (had a spare 30GB drive laying around so installed Vista64 to it -- "overclocking" the Toshiba drive using Hitachi Feature Tool helped)  

Comparably speaking running 512MB on Vista64 is like running ~128MB on Windows XP.  Running 1GB is like running 256MB and 2GB is like running 512MB.  

What threw me off when installed Vista32 some time ago was TaskMgr now displays (a rather useless) "Physical Memory" as opposed to "Memory Committed".  So even though Process Explorer was showing me the full 1.2GB, TaskMgr right now shows only 352MB and a very misleading 501MB as a "total".  It no longer displays "Committed" at all.  I'm not even sure if it's "Resource Monitor" can be configured to show actual usage.

[Reflex]

Reflex, that isnt safemode is it? that is "safe mode with networking"... try using an unactivated locked windows xp in "safe mode with networking" to try and establish connection settings to activate windows online. It says "no".
Safemode with networking is not safe mode.
-Ash

I can't speak to product activation, after all thats its own service, but safe mode with networking is still safe mode, its just safe mode with network drivers enabled(as opposed to safe mode without them enabled).  When troubleshooting an issue if you suspect that it has anything to do with the network stack/drivers, you'd boot with them disabled, but if you need the option of internet or local network connectivity, it gives you the option to boot with them.  Either way, its still safe mode.  And it has nothing to do with product activation, I do not know what WPA's required services are to activate a copy of Windows, if it dosen't work for you in safe mode it dosen't have anything to do with the network stack, which will work fine for other network applications.

[OldDummy]

Since I was the one who started this thread I feel that I can update everyone on how my experience with Vista is progressing.
....
.......
.........
Let's be honest how many of us believe that you have to have even average intelligence or technical skill to use Vista?

How true.

hehe...MS and Apple are becoming one.


I've been using Vista 64 for awhile and it's like fungi.

It grows on you.

 :-)
OD

[Ashtefere]

Reflex: You can use an unactivated windows xp in safe mode, but cannot in safe mode with networking.
It isnt just the network stack, its all the domain shit and internet stuff as well, and a bunch of wpa and other crap.
-Ash

[Intuit]

Ashtefere, check out the following registry keys.

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\SafeBoot\Minimal
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\SafeBoot\Network

XP simply uses either one of these keys in place of HKLM\System\CurrentControlSet\Services.

When you use "Last Known Good Configuration", the only thing Windows swaps-out is that Services Key.

HKLM\System\Select gives you more detail.
("CurrentControlSet" doesn't actually exist and is remapped based upon which boot option you select)

[Reflex]

Reflex: You can use an unactivated windows xp in safe mode, but cannot in safe mode with networking.
It isnt just the network stack, its all the domain shit and internet stuff as well, and a bunch of wpa and other crap.
-Ash

I still don't get what that has to do with anything.  You can boot Windows in a full safe mode with networking.  I have done it fairly regularly and used it for a number of tasks.  What that has to do with WPA I haven't a clue, since I buy legit copies of my software I really do not ever have an unactivated system for very long.

[Intuit]

There's absolutely no reason anyone would have to activate or verify legetimacy in Safe Mode.

[Connor]

I think the point is that if you have some technical problem during intallation/reinstallation that requires you to go online and get something (driver/flash update/Service pack) you can't do that using Safe Mode. And you can't activate to allow you to do that. you have to hope you have another pc with access and copy stuff across.

[Intuit]

Well if that's the point, it's just plain misinformed.

[MrbLOB9000]

hmmm... wireless connections may require you to boot farther than regular windows allows you to boot to get wireless connection working so  you can activate.  and you'd definitely not be able to make a dial up connection before you're blocked from booting, does the activation thinger allow you to do a dialup connection?

[Ashtefere]

Ok, to clear this up for people that havent tried it before here is a step by step:

If a windows has not been activated in time and has run out of grace period, it is locked down.
If the PC has not been on the internet before, you are unable to activate it online - even with a dhcp broadband ethernet connection.
To get this connection to work, you need to boot windows and have it try to access the internet at least once.
If you do this, the online activation will work.
But you cant, because it is locked down.
You CAN boot the PC in safe mode though and windows activation is turned off... you can get in and do what you want.
You CANNOT use network/internet though.
If you boot into Safe mode with Networking, (to try establish an internet connection) the PC locks down again. You cannot get in.

So you are screwed unless you activate by phone, which many of our customers cant do cos they are... well... retards?
The point was not mis-informed at all. In fact, I go through this on a daily basis. AGAIN, Intuit: Do not comment on something unless you understand.


Safe mode with networking loads up more than just an extra network driver. Thats all i was trying to say.

-Ash

[Reflex]

Um, so why would you wait that long to activate it?  And what does that have to do with safe mode?  As I stated before, safe mode supports networking just fine.  That was my only point.

[hydran]

-

[OldDummy]

....since I buy legit copies of my software I really do not ever have an unactivated system for very long.

Hello Reflex,

Don't you work for MS?

If so: Why would you pay for the tools of your employer?

If not: I'm misinformed.....again.

OD

[Intuit]

AGAIN, Intuit: Do not comment on something unless you understand.

Ashtefere, if you can simply pick up a phone or have the computer use dialup then you can activate and use safe mode with networking to download drivers.  Point = mute.

...and exactly what happened the last time you made an assumption like that ?
http://www.sudhian.com/index.php?/forums/viewpost/887226/
You were corrected on all three points.

Are you one of those people who have to run into the glass door a few times before you realize it's best just to slow down ?

Safe mode with networking loads up more than just an extra network driver. Thats all i was trying to say.

-Ash

Did you fail to follow-through on or comprehend post 63 ?  http://www.sudhian.com/index.php?/forums/viewpost/887351/

The exact difference between the two keys (Services)...
AFD (Ancilliary Function Driver - Networking Support Environment)
Browser
Dhcp
DnsCache
ip6fw.sys
ipnat.sys
LanmanServer
LanmanWorkstation
LmHosts
Messenger
NDIS
NDIS Wrapper
Ndisuio
NetBIOS
NetBIOSGroup
NetBT
NetDDEGroup
NetMan
Minimal
MinimalProvider
nm
nm.sys
NtLmSsp
PNP_TDI
rdpcdd.sys
rdpdd.sys
rdpwd.sys
rdsessmgr
SharedAccess
Streams Drivers
Tcpip
TDI (transport driver - net related)
tdpipe.sys
tdtcp.sys
termservice
WZCSVC
{4D36E972-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}="Net"
{4D36E973-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}="NetClient"
{4D36E974-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}="NetService"
{4D36E975-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}="NetTrans"

[Intuit]

Do not comment on something unless you understand.

aww... this spoils the whole point of online forums!!!!!!

In what way ?