World's first commercial flight with Biofuel

[agogley]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,332114,00.html

The headline is a biut misleading.  It wasn't exactly a commercial flight since there weren't any customers and it was only partially fueled by biofuels.  It's interesting that they say that jets produce two effects: global warming and global cooling (apparently caused by dust blocking the sun).    I do think global warming farse is having some positive effects...more efficient engines, more fuel options.  I'll smile when I read many years from now about how foolish the whole thing is.

[ScutMonkey]

And the price of corn and other produce continues to climb...

I hope places like Africa can find a way to make money and become productive off this silliness.

[agogley]

And the price of corn and other produce continues to climb...

I hope places like Africa can find a way to make money and become productive off this silliness.

Africa's problem is not lack of resources to make money.

[Connor]

And the price of corn and other produce continues to climb...

I hope places like Africa can find a way to make money and become productive off this silliness.

Actually it would be great to see the west implement sizeable irrigation and civil engineering projects aimed at increasing the production of Biofuel. Just as long as it isn't interfering with their food production capability as it has been with ours. For those of us in the far north, fast growing renewable crops like willow can replace corn and rapeseed.

[Reflex]

And the price of corn and other produce continues to climb...

I hope places like Africa can find a way to make money and become productive off this silliness.

Actually it would be great to see the west implement sizeable irrigation and civil engineering projects aimed at increasing the production of Biofuel. Just as long as it isn't interfering with their food production capability as it has been with ours. For those of us in the far north, fast growing renewable crops like willow can replace corn and rapeseed.

So you support the destruction of natural habitat so we can fuel cars?

[Timster]

And the price of corn and other produce continues to climb...

I hope places like Africa can find a way to make money and become productive off this silliness.

The jojoba plant grows in arid environments, and over 50% of the seed is oil that can be used to make biodiesel or biodegradble lubricants.  The plants grow all over the southwestern US and Egypt and Israel.  It's high oil content makes it worthwhile to harvest.

[Reflex]

There is no crop based solution that is worthwhile to harvest when all input energies are calculated.

[Connor]

And the price of corn and other produce continues to climb...

I hope places like Africa can find a way to make money and become productive off this silliness.

Actually it would be great to see the west implement sizeable irrigation and civil engineering projects aimed at increasing the production of Biofuel. Just as long as it isn't interfering with their food production capability as it has been with ours. For those of us in the far north, fast growing renewable crops like willow can replace corn and rapeseed.

So you support the destruction of natural habitat so we can fuel cars?

No, I support the reclamation of Arid Scrubland/Desert into useable commercial crops and a potential Carbon Offset. In terms of that it was more North African Countries I saw benefitting from it, rather than destroying the rainforests and Savannah of Central/Southern Africa, Although to be honest I'm not sure how badly the Savannah would be affected if it too was properly managed.

For Example; Egypt's biggest crop is Sugar which it produces with little destruction to the enviroment and allows it to have a tradeable resource - It would also be a suitable source for BioEthanol. However at the moment most irrigation schemes are small and based quite close to the Nile with the majority of the ountry remaining arid.

[Reflex]

You do realize that arid scrubland/desert is a complete and necessary ecosystem of its own currently, right?  Furrthermore, that water is our most at risk resource, and that wasting it on desert land is not only inefficient(due to evaporation) but also a massive waste just so we can burn the products in our cars?  How about the fact that modern farming methods are themselves some of the largest biohazards in the world, and the runoff has created massive dead zones in places like the Caribbean?

Crop based biofuels are one of the worst catastrophes in the world right now.  The UN has themselves declared them to be a crime against humanity and the environment.  There is a future in biofuels, but its not via crops.

[Connor]

A crop is any plant that is grown in significant quantities to be harvested as food, livestock fodder, or for any other economic purpose.

So for a biofuel unless you're taking it from Animals it's going to be a crop.
Also all your issues have to be taken into account, you have to choose plants not only for their biofuel capacity but also for the ability sustain the local ecosystem.
You also need to develop the best farming techniques both in reducing the energy required (or using renewable to do so) to  harvest; and in preventing damage & waste to the enviroment.

[Clipperjay]

Another rouse for the Eco warrior!
Well they have used coconut oil as an alternative bio fuel. The same method of extracting specific fuels from oil from the coconut and the plant. Richard Branson sucking on a coconut to promote his eco world status makes me chuckle indeedie!
Did you know in Brazil currently only produces about 250 barrels are produced a year to make bio fuels from plantations of coconuts.
Now we consume around 35million barrels a year so do the calculations. I've read that the plantation to have an eco effect to replace fossil fuel would be around the size of France X2 in hectares of plantations!!!! The Eco chaps want lower traffic airways and reduced frequency of fights to make an overall difference in emissions.

EDIT: on another note our companies are adopting non necessary flights policy where video conferencing is encouraged and this reduces costs and usage of planes in general.

[Reflex]

Connor - There are no crops that can be anything more than a 3% solution, and all of them come with severe penalties in the areas of water consumption(for both the growing of the crops and the refining into biofuel), destruction of natural habitat for farmland, chemical pollution, refining pollution(especially in the case of ethanol) and many many other issues, plus the energy balance is not there meaning in most cases you spend more in energy to produce the biofuel than you get when you utilize it.

There is hope however in the biofuel field. Algae based biofuel is easy to refine and can be grown in saltwater.  Its oil density is so high that it can actually conceivably produce all that is needed, plus its a massive carbon sink.  Bacterial based biofuels are even further down the line, but have a ton of potential.  But we'll never be able to impact even on a small scale with traditional crop based solutions.  They are the equivilent of jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

[Ashtefere]

There is only one kind of energy that can truly save us all in the very long run.
Its not solar.
Its not bio diesel.
Its not hydrogen.
Its not wind.
Its not tidal.
Its not fusion.
Its not fission.
It is...... RADIANT ENERGY!
Seriously, google it. Nikola Tesla invented a way to harness cosmic radiation like we harness the rays of the sun as solar energy. The thing with cosmic radiation though (he called it the 'ether') is that it is a constant. Its always there. Flies through our bodies every day. He invented this system in the early 1900's i believe. Tesla even patented it, and i think its still listed today.
Basicly its like a solar panel that gets energy from nothing except background radiation. The details of this device, though, have been hidden away by the U.S. government (oh, what a lovely government "free and unlimited energy for all? HAH!") as per the following excerpt from wikipedia:

"Immediately after Tesla's death became known, the Federal Bureau of Investigation instructed the government's Alien Property Custodian office to take possession of his papers and property, despite his US citizenship. His safe at the hotel was also opened. At the time of his death, Tesla had been continuing work on the teleforce weapon, or death ray, that he had unsuccessfully marketed to the US War Department. It appears that his proposed death ray was related to his research into ball lightning and plasma and was imagined as a particle beam weapon. The US government did not find a prototype of the device in the safe. After the FBI was contacted by the War Department, his papers were declared to be top secret. The so-called "peace ray" constitutes a part of some conspiracy theories as a means of destruction. The personal effects were seized on the advice of presidential advisers, and J. Edgar Hoover declared the case "most secret", because of the nature of Tesla's inventions and patents.[84] One document states that "[he] is reported to have some 80 trunks in different places containing transcripts and plans having to do with his experiments [...]". Charlotte Muzar reported that there were several "missing" papers and property.
Tesla's family and the Yugoslav embassy struggled with the American authorities to gain these items after his death due to the potential significance of some of his research"

The U.S. government still have most of his stuff. Primarly amongst it is wireless energy technology, death ray technology (basicly a cathode ray tube of doom), radiant energy technology, levitation technology (no joke!) and a few other cool things that would have advanced humankind hundreds of years... but then of course we had the whole "AMERICA! FUCK YEAH!" thing that stopped all that.
One day when we all run out of oil the US govt will go "oh look what we inventord! magic infinity energy box! lolz!".
But I doubt it. They wouldnt be able to charge you for that, you see.
-Ash

[Connor]

Reflex, We've spoken before about biofuels and like you I have high hopes for Algae and Microbiotic sources.
However the advantages of being able to grow crops on brownfield/contaminated Land with recycled/contaminated water are there. Of course as you say further precautions need to be taken to prevent that water re-entering the enviroment.

As for the energy issue I feel that today much of our production is aimed towards quick production of food stockpiles  leading to the energy inefficiencies. I.E; we are calculating Energy Costs against Profit not Energy Produced against Energy Used.
Techniques in the west need to be altered to suit this different mindset - even for production from Algae and microbiotics.  
Ironically More agarian societies already work on this mindset by balancing the food they harvest against the food used by workers/animals to harvest it. Getting back to our Farming roots is going to be one of the hardest things.

[Connor]

Ash,
Hadn't heard that about Tesla but I Believe T.T.Brown's Patents on Electrohydrodynamic thrust were resricted by the U.S. Goverment for a while.

[fall-apart]

For a number of reasons, using some plants for fuel is not a necessarily "greener" practice than burning petroleum-based fuels. Food-based bio-fuels have been shown to "release 17 to 420 times more CO2 than the annual greenhouse gas (GHG) reductions these biofuels provide by displacing fossil fuels." -- source

Not biofuel per se, but have you guys seen the new tech to turn sunshine into gasoline (bypassing the part of the carbon cycle where plants absorb the CO2 and die and millions of years later, there's oil)... Audio interview with the project manager on CBC's national science show, Quirks & Quarks.