|
Connor
Ace
Posts: 3,192
Join Date: Nov, 2002
|
 |
« Reply #75 on: March 05, 2008, 11:08:23 PM » |
|
I still have to disagree with some of my fellow Brits.
I think "PC" and the nanny state have given in general allowed kids to more easily say F'off to the establishment. That in turn has allowed the nasty end to step up a gear and be even more extreme.
Things have changed and I know that what I went to court for when I was 15 would just be ignored these days. Whilst I understand you wouldn't want to share the charge or the punishment you recieved. Without knowing what they were it's really difficult to comment on how the punishment has changed. As an example whilst young my brother was caught in a building he shouldn't have been in. The police at that time let him spend some time in the cells and let him off with a warning. 10-20 years previously and he would have been charged and had to stand before a juvenile court tying up court time when no-one was affected by the crime. 30-40 years earlier and the local policeman would have known our father and taken him to the door for a sound thrashing. (30-40 years previously my grandfather had been the Truancy Officer for the village, so equally did the same thing) Ultimately simplifying the system has seen the crime rate drop since 1992, and there are other ways to reform kids than taking them to court over each little thing. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Clipperjay
Ace
Posts: 1,674
Join Date: Mar, 2005
|
|
« Reply #76 on: March 06, 2008, 12:00:26 AM » |
|
THE ONE THING WE MOSTLY DO NOT THINK ABOUT IS GUESS WHAT?
THE YOUNGER GENERATION WILL GROW UP AND EVENTUALLY THEY ARE OUR FUTURE. WHO SAID YOUNG PEOPLE DO NOT MAKE MISTAKES IN THERE LIVES VOR YOU HAVE COMMENTED IF THEY GAVE UP ON YOU, WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE BECOME TODAY?
JUST BECUASE WE LABEL THEM YOBS DOES NOT MEAN THEY WILL NOT RUN THE COUNTRY ONE DAY?
WHEN THAT DAY COMES GOD HELP US ALL!!!
All I'm saying is the idealistic hippies in the 60's run some of the largest companies in the world today and proberly contribute to many hardships somewhere around the world and not even know it?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
VorLonUK
Ace
Posts: 3,760
Join Date: Nov, 2002
|
|
« Reply #77 on: March 06, 2008, 12:28:23 AM » |
|
THE ONE THING WE MOSTLY DO NOT THINK ABOUT IS GUESS WHAT?
THE YOUNGER GENERATION WILL GROW UP AND EVENTUALLY THEY ARE OUR FUTURE. WHO SAID YOUNG PEOPLE DO NOT MAKE MISTAKES IN THERE LIVES VOR YOU HAVE COMMENTED IF THEY GAVE UP ON YOU, WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE BECOME TODAY?
JUST BECUASE WE LABEL THEM YOBS DOES NOT MEAN THEY WILL NOT RUN THE COUNTRY ONE DAY?
WHEN THAT DAY COMES GOD HELP US ALL!!!
All I'm saying is the idealistic hippies in the 60's run some of the largest companies in the world today and proberly contribute to many hardships somewhere around the world and not even know it? In my opinion, it's how we Deal with anti-social behavoir that is all wrong. I think we are too soft, which then inturn throws discipline further out the window. We should get these yobs and throw them in the army, which would be more constructive than Borstal where they used to get sent to in my era. Seriously, I do think 50's style national service which is still operated by some countries is a winner. In the same way the cane kept the nutters in line at school. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
GTX
Ace
Posts: 3,206
Join Date: Sep, 2002
|
|
« Reply #78 on: March 06, 2008, 12:35:57 AM » |
|
THE ONE THING WE MOSTLY DO NOT THINK ABOUT IS GUESS WHAT?
THE YOUNGER GENERATION WILL GROW UP AND EVENTUALLY THEY ARE OUR FUTURE. WHO SAID YOUNG PEOPLE DO NOT MAKE MISTAKES IN THERE LIVES VOR YOU HAVE COMMENTED IF THEY GAVE UP ON YOU, WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE BECOME TODAY?
JUST BECUASE WE LABEL THEM YOBS DOES NOT MEAN THEY WILL NOT RUN THE COUNTRY ONE DAY?
WHEN THAT DAY COMES GOD HELP US ALL!!!
All I'm saying is the idealistic hippies in the 60's run some of the largest companies in the world today and proberly contribute to many hardships somewhere around the world and not even know it? Some of the younger generation will be the future white collar, blue collar, green collar workers, self employed businessmen and entrepreneurs while others will be the future inmates, drug dealers, grunt workers, welfare recipients, wifebeaters and deadbeat dads. If they don't shape up they'll provide cheap labor and create job security for people in the social service, law enforcement and correctional sectors. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Overkill
Elite
Posts: 757
Join Date: Apr, 2004
|
|
« Reply #79 on: March 06, 2008, 07:07:45 PM » |
|
THE ONE THING WE MOSTLY DO NOT THINK ABOUT IS GUESS WHAT?
THE YOUNGER GENERATION WILL GROW UP AND EVENTUALLY THEY ARE OUR FUTURE. WHO SAID YOUNG PEOPLE DO NOT MAKE MISTAKES IN THERE LIVES VOR YOU HAVE COMMENTED IF THEY GAVE UP ON YOU, WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE BECOME TODAY?
JUST BECUASE WE LABEL THEM YOBS DOES NOT MEAN THEY WILL NOT RUN THE COUNTRY ONE DAY?
WHEN THAT DAY COMES GOD HELP US ALL!!!
All I'm saying is the idealistic hippies in the 60's run some of the largest companies in the world today and proberly contribute to many hardships somewhere around the world and not even know it? In my opinion, it's how we Deal with anti-social behavoir that is all wrong. I think we are too soft, which then inturn throws discipline further out the window. We should get these yobs and throw them in the army, which would be more constructive than Borstal where they used to get sent to in my era. Seriously, I do think 50's style national service which is still operated by some countries is a winner. In the same way the cane kept the nutters in line at school. Not going there Steve, as we've been over that one before. I will only quote what a serving soldier said about National service recently: "National Service? No thanks. We have enough problems in the army as it is. Do people not realise that we already have plenty of these young men (and women) in the services already? Which is why I don't want anymore thanks. They will become disciplined you say? You couldn't be more wrong. They are a liability, for that very reason. They are poorly educated, totally lacking in the essential skills, and their lack of discipline is too ingrained to become good soldiers. How do I know? I have served with them, and some of them nearly cost me my life. I for one, and no other squaddie I know, wants these youngster foisted on us just to keep them off the streets. Do I agree with National service? 100% no". Nuff said tbh. Add to that, the college I work for runs the 'feeder course' for the Army, and we get loads of these kids on 'last chance' tickets. The Army, and our Tutors who work for them, run their eye over the youths to see who would be suitable, and very, very few ever are. If you make it compulsory for them to serve, then all you are doing is forcing the Army (the Navy and RAF would just reject them outright) to accept a role it doesn't want. Frankly, why should I pay taxes to keep the Daily Mail reading middle classes from having put up with a teenage problem that 'embarrasses them'. In particular as the current problem is linked to the economy they allowed the Tories to create. The problem needs to be addressed on a far deeper level. Allowing parents to have working practises that sees them spending more time with their kids, proper support for parents to deal with problem kids, things for kids to do rather than hanging around (as we did) bored and looking for trouble. The various solutions that sound good to the DM brigade are all called 'closing the stable door after the horse has bolted'. Bring back caning, you're having a laugh lads! Fat lot of good that'll do. It was phased out for that reason, in the 1980's, under a Tory govt. Spot me a 'Liberal do-gooder' among that shower. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
rrussell
Ace
Posts: 3,306
Join Date: Jul, 2004
|
|
« Reply #80 on: March 06, 2008, 07:31:24 PM » |
|
This topic makes me sob.
Solution: Fob the yobs off on the slobs without jobs who lob cobs into mobs.
(signed)
Rob
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Connor
Ace
Posts: 3,192
Join Date: Nov, 2002
|
|
« Reply #81 on: March 06, 2008, 07:54:25 PM » |
|
Spot on Overkill, In another recent thread, I related the story of Simon Amstell the TV presenter (Never Mind the Buzzcocks) who when feeling guilty about recording an Army recruitment advert was assured by the Army Personnel that these were the particular individuals the Advert was aimed at and they would have only Macdonalds/Burger King as an alternative careers to joining the Army.
As for caning - I think we all know that causes more problems as Teachers become more Brutal and Cane the guilty and the innocent alike. At school I was once placed on a two Hour detention for an act I didn't commit, I more or less shrugged it off but I wouldn't have done so lightly had it been a caning instead.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
VorLonUK
Ace
Posts: 3,760
Join Date: Nov, 2002
|
|
« Reply #82 on: March 06, 2008, 08:08:57 PM » |
|
Not going there Steve, as we’ve been over that one before. I will only quote what a serving soldier said about National service recently:
“National Service? No thanks. We have enough problems in the army as it is. Do people not realise that we already have plenty of these young men (and women) in the services already? Which is why I don’t want anymore thanks. They will become disciplined you say? You couldn’t be more wrong. They are a liability, for that very reason. They are poorly educated, totally lacking in the essential skills, and their lack of discipline is too ingrained to become good soldiers. How do I know? I have served with them, and some of them nearly cost me my life. I for one, and no other squaddie I know, wants these youngster foisted on us just to keep them off the streets. Do I agree with National service? 100% noâ€.
Nuff said tbh.
I have only one picture of my late father in Navy Uniform here. He was a petty officer on HMS Agincourt where he (the yanks will love this!) had something to do with guns. He learnt a trade in the Navy and the friends i know who served with him all went on into engineering of some type. Their national service days are always spoken about fondly. But regardless of that, I still would have to disagree with you Neil. I think national service would do them good and/or the Bortsals. As for these kids that commit murder - then hang em. I know you don't favour capital punishment and you know I don't much agree with our yankee cousins on much, but i do agree with capital punishment. If you take a life, in a cool, controlled and calculated way, then you should forego your own. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Timster
Ace
Posts: 2,845
Join Date: Jan, 2004
|
|
« Reply #83 on: March 07, 2008, 03:51:34 AM » |
|
I believe people have the right to peacefully assemble and public places such as parks are great places to hang out and gather in. I feel if a group of kids decides to hang out in such a spot, it's fine. It's when they become disruptive to others, harass, or assault others, that's when it's time to get on a phone and get a police officer to come in and remove the troublemakers. If no one is complaining, it's not a problem.
The major difference I see in the US is that the troublemaker kids don't normally gather in public places like parks. They hang out in places off the beaten path where they won't draw attention from the cops. If they decided to hang outside a corner store or shop, the manager will call the police in to ask them to leave for loitering on private property.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Connor
Ace
Posts: 3,192
Join Date: Nov, 2002
|
|
« Reply #84 on: March 07, 2008, 10:23:21 AM » |
|
I believe people have the right to peacefully assemble and public places such as parks are great places to hang out and gather in. I feel if a group of kids decides to hang out in such a spot, it's fine. It's when they become disruptive to others, harass, or assault others, that's when it's time to get on a phone and get a police officer to come in and remove the troublemakers. If no one is complaining, it's not a problem.
The major difference I see in the US is that the troublemaker kids don't normally gather in public places like parks. They hang out in places off the beaten path where they won't draw attention from the cops. If they decided to hang outside a corner store or shop, the manager will call the police in to ask them to leave for loitering on private property. I think that's most of the problem here, firstly there is a fear of these youths so that even if they do nothing people are already scared. If they laugh or shout then people who are already scared feel harrassed. Secondly, we don't have that many "Out of the way" places; we're a small country with a huge population. Nearly every square meter of green land is becoming housing or retail developments. Youths have to hang out in public places like Shopping centres and street corners. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
GTX
Ace
Posts: 3,206
Join Date: Sep, 2002
|
|
« Reply #85 on: March 07, 2008, 07:38:45 PM » |
|
Many areas have teen curfews anti-skatebaord laws and loitering laws to prevent teens from hanging out in front of businesses since they drive away customers and attract other teens. Littering, theft and vandalism also increases when there are mobs of kids hanging out after dark.
Loitering is mostly a problem in blighted downtown sections of low income neighborhoods with subsidized housing where the teens and parents can't afford vehicles, transportation and entertainment for various reasons.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
hydran
Ace
Posts: 4,168
Join Date: Aug, 2005
|
|
« Reply #86 on: March 10, 2008, 09:45:44 PM » |
|
this is the sort of stuff that I mean: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/lancashire/7287772.stm"none of the youths can be named for legal reasons"... **** legal reasons - they forgo their rights when they kick a woman to death. If these were a pack of dogs, you wouldn't think twice before culling them. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
VorLonUK
Ace
Posts: 3,760
Join Date: Nov, 2002
|
|
« Reply #87 on: March 10, 2008, 09:54:29 PM » |
|
that's what i mean Hydran.... These little shits should be punished imo, but the system protects them. They will get out of prison early, given new identities (if required) like the bulger case and they will continue their life. It's just not right. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Clipperjay
Ace
Posts: 1,674
Join Date: Mar, 2005
|
|
« Reply #88 on: March 10, 2008, 11:00:45 PM » |
|
that's what i mean Hydran.... These little shits should be punished imo, but the system protects them. They will get out of prison early, given new identities (if required) like the bulger case and they will continue their life. It's just not right.
It does question in society what young muderers who got a second chance lead normal lives? Vor they aren't animals though?( I find that kind of act distaste full aswell by the way) You must have met some offenders when you got banged up, whats your take on how they treated you back then? Jay |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
VorLonUK
Ace
Posts: 3,760
Join Date: Nov, 2002
|
|
« Reply #89 on: March 11, 2008, 01:55:32 AM » |
|
that's what i mean Hydran.... These little shits should be punished imo, but the system protects them. They will get out of prison early, given new identities (if required) like the bulger case and they will continue their life. It's just not right.
It does question in society what young muderers who got a second chance lead normal lives? Vor they aren't animals though?( I find that kind of act distaste full aswell by the way) You must have met some offenders when you got banged up, whats your take on how they treated you back then? Jay Jay, i didn't get banged up but I did get ordered to pay compensation, which was a high figure at the time and it didn't involve any violence whatsoever. Look, I see a thousand shades of grey between Premeditated murder and Accidental murder (I believe the yanks do some gradings too), but for those who do commit pre-meditated murder then I think that is it and I favour capital punishment. I just don't think some people can be helped even if we had the facilities - which we don't. Our prisons are already to capacity, with the wrong people being let out early and those that are non-dangerous who could serve in the community having to see out their sentences. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Clipperjay
Ace
Posts: 1,674
Join Date: Mar, 2005
|
|
« Reply #90 on: March 11, 2008, 10:36:23 PM » |
|
that's what i mean Hydran.... These little shits should be punished imo, but the system protects them. They will get out of prison early, given new identities (if required) like the bulger case and they will continue their life. It's just not right.
It does question in society what young muderers who got a second chance lead normal lives? Vor they aren't animals though?( I find that kind of act distaste full aswell by the way) You must have met some offenders when you got banged up, whats your take on how they treated you back then? Jay Jay, i didn't get banged up but I did get ordered to pay compensation, which was a high figure at the time and it didn't involve any violence whatsoever. Look, I see a thousand shades of grey between Premeditated murder and Accidental murder (I believe the yanks do some gradings too), but for those who do commit pre-meditated murder then I think that is it and I favour capital punishment. I just don't think some people can be helped even if we had the facilities - which we don't. Our prisons are already to capacity, with the wrong people being let out early and those that are non-dangerous who could serve in the community having to see out their sentences. Sorry thought you did some time at some point? Coming back to the prisons drug abuse takes nearly 70% of prision budgets and spaces. Killing or emotionless killing is something else chemical or what ever label you want to place upon this, still has a degree of valuable research into minds of klillings which I think stems from childhood trauma in the first place. I don't agree with soft sentances either, but I don't believe a defective gene in our pool should be just culled off without understanding why and how in the first place and young killers pre med or not must be a key piece of data to fill this strange act at young age? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
VorLonUK
Ace
Posts: 3,760
Join Date: Nov, 2002
|
|
« Reply #91 on: March 19, 2008, 06:35:02 PM » |
|
This may be happening all over the western world to varying degrees, but I think it is indicative, atleast in part of how kids these days know how to manipulate authority and have no fear in doing so. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7305252.stm |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Timster
Ace
Posts: 2,845
Join Date: Jan, 2004
|
|
« Reply #92 on: March 20, 2008, 06:29:47 AM » |
|
This may be happening all over the western world to varying degrees, but I think it is indicative, atleast in part of how kids these days know how to manipulate authority and have no fear in doing so. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7305252.stmI feel bad for teachers who are missing work and pay because of a false accusation. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Connor
Ace
Posts: 3,192
Join Date: Nov, 2002
|
|
« Reply #93 on: March 20, 2008, 02:29:10 PM » |
|
This may be happening all over the western world to varying degrees, but I think it is indicative, atleast in part of how kids these days know how to manipulate authority and have no fear in doing so. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7305252.stmAgain, kids have always known how to manipulate Authority and have never had fear in doing so. My Family Experience shows that My Mother was regular truant engaging in underage smoking and drinking - she lost her two front teeth to a swig from a wine bottle on a school trip to Italy - That happened when you were in primary school. My Dad's dad was school Janitor and erstwhile Truant Officer from 1949-1979 he had to chase after pupils (including my mother) and if he caught them he had to drag them back to the school. It didn't stop them, and didn't make them change their ways. I'm sure if you want to investigate you can find a history of kids knocking off police officers hats, etc. In 1929 the church I attend had their hall burned down by a group of teenagers who were let off because of their young age - Today they would have at least got an ASBO - Probably taken to court as well. In 1997 a simmilarly aged group of youths smashed in the church Windows and were never found. Again you seem to think it would be a better day returning to the situation where Teachers were abusing(physically and Sexually) kids and getting away with it rather than having the kids making false allegations or being lippy to teachers. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
VorLonUK
Ace
Posts: 3,760
Join Date: Nov, 2002
|
|
« Reply #94 on: March 20, 2008, 03:57:55 PM » |
|
Again you seem to think it would be a better day returning to the situation where Teachers were abusing(physically and Sexually) kids and getting away with it rather than having the kids making false allegations or being lippy to teachers. I'm not saying that at all and you ARE completely missing my point and misrepresenting my sentiment. There is no doubt that there is far less discipline these days with kids and I'm saying we've gone too far in "Political correctness", rather than drawing a line where it's most appropiate. The article I linked to is typical of kids today understanding how they can manipulate the law to their own ends. Obviously not all kids are bad, but in general kids are far more aware of the laws of the land concerning discipline than they were in my day. To that end I thought these figures were noteworthy:- The NASUWT union, for example, says it has had 2,316 allegations brought against its members in recent years, of which 2,231 have been concluded.
Only 105 or about 5% had resulted in any action being brought against the teacher.
Even taking into account a large margin of error, the figures shout something is wrong. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Connor
Ace
Posts: 3,192
Join Date: Nov, 2002
|
|
« Reply #95 on: March 20, 2008, 09:49:21 PM » |
|
Again you seem to think it would be a better day returning to the situation where Teachers were abusing(physically and Sexually) kids and getting away with it rather than having the kids making false allegations or being lippy to teachers. I'm not saying that at all and you ARE completely missing my point and misrepresenting my sentiment. There is no doubt that there is far less discipline these days with kids and I'm saying we've gone too far in "Political correctness", rather than drawing a line where it's most appropiate. The article I linked to is typical of kids today understanding how they can manipulate the law to their own ends. Obviously not all kids are bad, but in general kids are far more aware of the laws of the land concerning discipline than they were in my day. To that end I thought these figures were noteworthy:- The NASUWT union, for example, says it has had 2,316 allegations brought against its members in recent years, of which 2,231 have been concluded.
Only 105 or about 5% had resulted in any action being brought against the teacher.
Even taking into account a large margin of error, the figures shout something is wrong. I don't believe there is a lack of dicipline in schools, not in the pupils behaviour and not in the schools ability to give suitable punishments. Personal experience from 10 years of working in uniformed and non uniformed youth organisations has convinced me that activities designed to instill dicipline are more likely to bring through the same skills that their other social interactions both in and outside of school will anyway. I also believe that further punishment options for teachers break down teacher-pupil trust and replaces mutual respect with mutual fear. As for your comment on the 5% teacher conviction rate - it exactly the same as the rape conviction rate. Your word versus mine are they going to try and proceed with an unsafe convition or are they going to drop the case? - I think the statistic speaks for itself. However your argument also can't seperate those cases where complaints are made by other staff, parents or independant parties however you are choosing to portray it as reording allegations made by pupils. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
