IDE or AHCI mode?

[VorLonUK]

I've noted that my GA-P35C-DS3R can be set for either, but seeing my Hard Drives are not in RAID mode or support NCQ, is there any need or improvement in using AHCI?

Also the Gigabyte manual states that as per previous Windows OS's and with Vista, that a driver disk needs to be created for the AHCI function, however I've also found info on the Net stating Vista 32/64 supports AHCI "out of the box" without the need for a user created driver diskette.

Anyone come across this, or found there to be any differences, especially when your drives don't support NCQ?

Thanks....

[Ashtefere]

Vista supports almost all ahci chipsets out of the box. Also, most raid chipsets as well.
If you use xp though, I recommend using "raid mode" in the bios, because it is backwards compatible with ahci, and allows you to upgrade to raid and clone the drive to a raid array without reformatting.
-Ash

[Reflex]

Some of the most recent chipsets are not supported in AHCI mode, I had to pull the drivers down onto a USB flash device to install in AHCI mode on my laptop.  That said, it does not produce any real benefits that I can see, even with NCQ.  I can't tell any diff between my laptop before I reinstalled it with AHCI and after...

I'd say its something to do *if* you reinstall the system at some point in the future, but nothing to lose any sleep over.  It is required if your going to use TurboMemory or anything like that though, which I doubt.

[MrbLOB9000]

some drives and chipsets seem to require AHCI to run eSATA drives, so if you're installing fresh go ahead and use AHCI but like Reflex said, it's not super different than IDE mode.

[VorLonUK]

Some sites said that Vista supported AHCI straight out of the box, but the GigaByte manual says a driver diskette needs to be created first for AHCI support with XP and Vista I will be using Vista 64.

I've also read that some SATA optical drives fail to work with AHCI enabled, although MS have a hot-fix for this. I have one sata and one ide Optical drive and my Hard drives don't support NCQ. I believe it adds hot swappable features too, but i won't be using that either - so it seems it might be worth leaving it alone and leaving the bios in IDE mode.

Edit:-

What is "Turbo Memory" Reflex and how does it interact with AHCI?

[MrbLOB9000]

Turbo Memory is for laptops and made by Intel, it basically is an internal Mini PCI card with a flash chip on it to give the laptop Readyboost without the use of an external drive.

[Ashtefere]

SPC_75's 1tb sammy drive would only run at 4 megabytes per second unless it ran on AHCI or RAID. Once we reformatted with ahci mode+drivers it ran at over 200MB/s (burst)
Id call that a performance difference.
-Ash

[MrbLOB9000]

Ash: what board, what chipset?  was that after installing chipset drivers and making sure it was running in DMA?

[Reflex]

Something wrong with that setup.  Performance wise there is very little delta between regular and AHCI mode.  Just a few new features(that would not show themselves on a first gen SATA drive like the one in question here).

[VorLonUK]

I'm going with the IDE mode for now, even though according to a few forums, enabling AHCI later causes windows activation to throw a fit.

Edit:

I thought my WDC drives didn't support NCQ as on their specs unlike the Enterprise drives nothing is mentioned. However their Knowledge base says that the drives ending AAKS (amongst others) do in fact support NCQ and I have two of these drives.

link

[Intuit]

Checkout the following two threads...

http://www.sudhian.com/index.php?/forums/viewthread/99788/

http://www.sudhian.com/index.php?/forums/viewthread/99350/

[VorLonUK]

Thanks Intuit,

But so far I've found Intel contradicts itself on two of it's readme's. One one it says the F6 driver install is a must on Vista for AHCI support and on the other it says it's not neccessary.

What i can't work out, is if the F6 install part of the matrix storage driver is part of, seperate or whatever of the post OS install Matrix driver. Is it in two halves?

[MrbLOB9000]

Vorlon stated this in another thread, should probably just keep the AHCI discusion in one thread rather than fracture it into multiple threads:

Just noted with AHCI enabled in the bios.

1) SATA hard drives/ODD disappear (in the bios) - I assume the Intel bios takes over (shown during boot)
2) WDC Diagnostics won't load completely - fails in drive detection
3) MHDD won't work - can't see any drives.

I assume most drive utilities, ie those from Hitachi, Western Digital, Seagate, Samsung and loads others require drives to be in IDE mode for them to work?

&

Will S.M.A.R.T type tools still work within an AHCI enabled windows Vista, ie do they use the OS or call on the bios direct?

[VorLonUK]

The other thread was particular to AHCI and software tools/utilities, rather than AHCI per-se

[MrbLOB9000]

Thanks Intuit,

But so far I've found Intel contradicts itself on two of it's readme's. One one it says the F6 driver install is a must on Vista for AHCI support and on the other it says it's not neccessary.

depends on the chipset, I didn't have to give it anything for my laptop, apparently vista already supports AHCI for that southbridge, but other newer southbridges you'll need to install the driver before it will correctly see the HD and not bluescreen.

What i can't work out, is if the F6 install part of the matrix storage driver is part of, seperate or whatever of the post OS install Matrix driver. Is it in two halves?

the F6 driver has less stuff, and if you install the full package after windows install it will have more stuff and utilites to configure this or that but both should technically work (more so with raid, not as much with AHCI).

[MrbLOB9000]

The other thread was particular to AHCI and software tools/utilities, rather than AHCI per-se

dude, it was about having to run in IDE mode rather than AHCI to get utilities to run, and this is a tread about which mode is better and what the differences are... how does this not fit?!  Why fracture a discussion into a half dozen threads when it's about the same thing?

Anyway, it looks like your board is running an ICH9 chipset, that may be what the difference is, the laptop I was talking about in this thread http://www.sudhian.com/index.php?/forums/viewthread/102358/ worked fine with Hitachi DFT with AHCI enabled but that has an ICH8 chipset.  Hmm... he's looking for more utilities to try but he seems to have already tried most of them.

’ve tried various “Dos” tools and they won’t work with AHCI enabled. Plus most the popular windows utilities, such as Speedfan, Everest and many other SMART & HD temp utilities won’t work either.
I haven’t found one “Dos” (or Linux boot) or any windows HD utilities that work with AHCI enabled. Seems it’s a bit like using a USB external harddrive, where you can Chkdsk etc, but you can’t view SMART or temp details.

My laptop has AHCI enabled but is running ICH8, HWmonitor from CPUID works to view HD temp in Vista Ultimate 32bit. http://www.cpuid.com/hwmonitor.php  does that work for you?

edit: see here's a pic of it

[MrbLOB9000]

I'm going with the IDE mode for now, even though according to a few forums, enabling AHCI later causes windows activation to throw a fit.

Edit:

I thought my WDC drives didn't support NCQ as on their specs unlike the Enterprise drives nothing is mentioned. However their Knowledge base says that the drives ending AAKS (amongst others) do in fact support NCQ and I have two of these drives.

link

WD doesn't change the model numbers when they change the technology inside the drives, like they recently made some drives with 320GB per platter but they aren't different model numbers than the 250GB platter drives, so it could be the same with NCQ where they added it but didn't change the model number so they don't list it as a feature because not all drives of that model will have it.  Kinda lame of WD to tell you the truth.

[VorLonUK]

I'm running the ICH9R, which is different to the ICH9 in the way it's supported it seems. http://www.intel.com/support/chipsets/imsm/sb/CS-020784.htm

I use the CPUID utilities too. Have you tried their PCWizard Mr Blob and seen if the SMART data is available on the HD plane of that program? - whilst in AHCI mode?

[VorLonUK]

I'm going with the IDE mode for now, even though according to a few forums, enabling AHCI later causes windows activation to throw a fit.

Edit:

I thought my WDC drives didn't support NCQ as on their specs unlike the Enterprise drives nothing is mentioned. However their Knowledge base says that the drives ending AAKS (amongst others) do in fact support NCQ and I have two of these drives.

link

WD doesn't change the model numbers when they change the technology inside the drives, like they recently made some drives with 320GB per platter but they aren't different model numbers than the 250GB platter drives, so it could be the same with NCQ where they added it but didn't change the model number so they don't list it as a feature because not all drives of that model will have it.  Kinda lame of WD to tell you the truth.

What i like about WD, is not only their drives, but they offer Advance Replacement in Europe.

[Reflex]

You won't get much WD love around here, too much heartache, too many losses....

But I don't know about ICH9, my laptop is only ICH8...

[VorLonUK]

You won't get much WD love around here, too much heartache, too many losses....

But I don't know about ICH9, my laptop is only ICH8...

Love WD, good drives and good European service - but we've had this conversation before. There's not much MS love around here either, too much heartache, too many losses and a force fed global monopoly - not good.

But back on topic;
I have an ICH9R which seems to be very different from the ICH9 as the Intel Matrix software only works on the Raid/Ahci derivatives.

Addition Info, to the Intel links further up the thread.
http://www.intel.com/support/chipsets/imsm/sb/CS-022239.htm

[MrbLOB9000]

You won't get much WD love around here, too much heartache, too many losses....

But I don't know about ICH9, my laptop is only ICH8...

odd then, because mine's ICH8 and I didn't need to give Vista any drivers while installing in AHCI,  I remeber you had blue screens unless you gave it drivers... wtf?  According to CPU-Z I've got 82801HBM (ICH8-ME), which one do  you have?

[VorLonUK]

You won't get much WD love around here, too much heartache, too many losses....

But I don't know about ICH9, my laptop is only ICH8...

odd then, because mine's ICH8 and I didn't need to give Vista any drivers while installing in AHCI,  I remeber you had blue screens unless you gave it drivers... wtf?  According to CPU-Z I've got 82801HBM (ICH8-ME), which one do  you have?

Mblob,

According to this you don't have to, plus your chipset is supported by the Windows version of the Matrix manager.
http://www.intel.com/support/chipsets/imsm/sb/CS-022239.htm

This describes why you get the BLUE screen:-
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/922976

During the Windows Vista installation process, any unused storage drivers are disabled. This behavior speeds up the operating system's startup process. When you change the boot drive to a driver that has been disabled, you must enable the new driver before you change the hardware configuration.

For example, assume that you install Windows Vista on a computer that contains a controller that uses the Pciide.sys driver. Later, you change the SATA mode to AHCI. Therefore, the drive must now load the Msahci.sys driver. However, you must enable the Msahci.sys driver before you make this change.

This issue affects only the boot drive. If the drive that you change is not the boot drive, you do not experience this issue.

AHCI provides several features for SATA devices. These include hot plug functionality and power management functionality. For more information about the AHCI specification, visit the following Intel Web site:
http://www.intel.com/technology/serialata/ahci.htm

[MrbLOB9000]

Reflex had to give it a driver if he enabled AHCI or he would get a bluescreen while installing vista.  I'm not talking about changing the setting after install.

[VorLonUK]

Reflex had to give it a driver if he enabled AHCI or he would get a bluescreen while installing vista.  I'm not talking about changing the setting after install.

I think I know why that is. Intel does contradict Itself.
For instance
A)

Intel® Matrix Storage Manager
Do I need to use the F6 installation method?

 http://www.intel.com/support/chipsets/imsm/sb/CS-022239.htm
Answer

Question 4 - Are you using Microsoft Windows Vista*?

If the answer is no, you will need to use the F6 installation method to load the Intel® Matrix Storage Manager driver during operating system install. If your system is in RAID mode, once the operating system has been loaded, it is recommended that you install Intel® Matrix Storage Manager via its executable from within Windows*. This will allow you to take advantage of the Intel® Matrix Storage Console and event notifications available via the system tray icon.

If the answer is yes, the F6 installation method is not required. If your system is in RAID mode, once the operating system has been loaded, it is recommended that you install Intel® Matrix Storage Manager via its executable from within Windows. This will allow you to take advantage of the Intel® Matrix Storage Console and event notifications available via the system tray icon.

B)
Intel Matrix Storage manager page for Vista 32 http://downloadcenter.intel.com/filter_results.aspx?strTypes=all&ProductID=2101&OSFullName=Windows+Vista*+32&lang=eng&strOSs=164&submit=Go!
Link to Windows Software part of Intel Matrix storage Manager Readme - from above page:-
http://downloadmirror.intel.com/14848/ENG/readme.txt

5.  INSTALLING THE SOFTWARE

5.1 General Installation Notes

1.  If you are installing the operating system on a system
    configured for RAID or AHCI mode, you must pre-install
    the Intel(R) Matrix Storage Manager driver using the
    F6 installation method described in section 5.3.

5.3 Pre-Installation Using the F6 Method.
 * Note: For Windows Vista you can use a floppy, CD/DVD or USB.4.  For Windows Vista:
    - During the operating system installation, after selecting the
     location to install Vista, click Load Driver to
install a third
     party SCSI or RAID driver.

    - Continue to step 5.

5.  When prompted, insert the media (floppy, CD/DVD
 or USB) you
    created in step 2 and press Enter.

6.  At this point you should be presented with a selection
    for one of the following depending on your hardware
    version and configuration:

    - Intel(R) 82801IR/IO SATA RAID Controller (Desktop ICH9R)
    - Intel(R) 82801IR/IO SATA AHCI Controller (Desktop ICH9R)
    - Intel(R) 82801HEM SATA RAID Controller (Mobile ICH8M-E)
    - Intel(R) 82801HEM SATA AHCI Controller (Mobile ICH8M-E)
    - Intel(R) 82801HBM SATA AHCI Controller (Mobile ICH8M)
    - Intel(R) 82801HR/HH/HO SATA RAID Controller (Desktop ICH8R)
    - Intel(R) 82801HR/HH/HO SATA AHCI Controller (Desktop ICH8R)
    - Intel(R) 631xESB/632xESB SATA RAID Controller (Workstation ESB2)
    - Intel(R) 82801GHM SATA RAID Controller (Mobile ICH7RM)
    - Intel(R) 82801GBM SATA AHCI Controller (Mobile ICH7M)
    - Intel(R) 82801GR/GH SATA RAID Controller (Desktop ICH7R/DH)
    - Intel(R) 82801GR/GH SATA AHCI Controller (Desktop ICH7R/DH)

7.  Highlight the selection that is appropriate for the
    hardware in your system and press Enter.

Seems to me that as Reflex has found on the one hand you need to install a driver Pre OS install for AHCI on his laptop and yet Ash (on here) seems to find Vista supports AHCI out of the box, that Intel have a bit of a mixed bag.

Reflex and Mr Blob
Have you confirmed your systems are actually running in AHCI mode (well the OS anyway) by this method:-
http://downloadmirror.intel.com/14848/ENG/readme.txt

4.  DETERMINING THE SYSTEM MODE
To use this Readme effectively, you will need to know what
mode your system is in. The easiest way to determine the
mode is to identify how the Serial ATA controller is
presented within the Device Manager. The following
procedure will guide you through determining the mode.

6.  From the Device Manager, look for an entry named
    'IDE ATA/ATAPI controllers'. If this entry is
    present, expand it and look for one of the following
    controllers:

    - 'Intel(R) 82801IR/IO SATA AHCI Controller'    
      If the controller above is present, the system is
      an ICH9R system in AHCI mode and no further action
      is required

    - 'Intel(R) 82801HBM AHCI I/O Controller'
      If the controller above is present, the system is
      an ICH8M system in AHCI mode and no further action
      is required

    - 'Intel(R) 82801HR/HH/HO SATA AHCI Controller'    
      If the controller above is present, the system is
      an ICH8R system in AHCI mode and no further action
      is required

    - 'Intel(R) 631xESB/632xESB SATA AHCI Controller'
      If the controller above is present, the system is
      an 631xESB/632xESB system in AHCI mode and no further
      action is required.

    - 'Intel(R) 82801GBM SATA AHCI Controller'
      If the controller above is present, the system is
      an ICH7M system in AHCI mode and no further action
      is required.

    - 'Intel(R) 82801GR/GH SATA AHCI Controller'
      If the controller above is present, the system is
      an ICH7R/DH system in AHCI mode and no further action
      is required.
 
    - If none of the controllers above are shown, then
      your system is not in AHCI mode. No other modes are  
      supported by the Intel(R) Matrix Storage Manager
      software and you should continue with step 7 below.