When Anti-Obama Songs Go Wrong:

[Salamander]

No supportive reasonings or examples? I can give a few..

http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/05/news/economy/cbo_obama_budget/
http://politics.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/mary-kate-cary/2010/7/14/Even-the-Communist-Chinese-Worry-About-Obamas-Spending.html

Ok ok, he was on the road after Bush, not sure if it's perse only bush's fault, but yea this war was stupid and many other stuff. It's like damned if you do, damned if you don't.
But if damned, the damned only got worse, so far.

And you can't compare Clintin with now, it's soooo different..

And just to show how bad it is:
http://www.businessinsider.com/dept-to-gdp-revenue-2010-8
(and debt/gdp is over 93% now, keep that in mind when reading the above).

[Intuit]

Re Money.CNN.Com:
Directly from CBO.Gov - http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/112xx/doc11231/index.cfm
Projected defecit starts at 1.6T (2010), ends at 1.3T (2020).  Straight from the horse's mouth.
Whoops.  Back to the drawing board...

[Intuit]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/29/obama-goes-to-the-gop-lio_n_442331.html
http://www.examiner.com/progressive-in-new-orleans/president-obama-meets-with-gop-leaders-change-vs-obstructionism
http://www.whitehouse.gov/photos-and-video/video/president-obama-takes-questions-gop-house-issues-conference
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pGSVGR9_cQ

Despite being "schooled," they obviously still didn't get the lesson...

...but then again, they haven't invited him back since then.  So maybe they did learn something.

[yoopertemp]

You can praise our current President all you want for percieved advances he has made....but he is an absolute horrible commander in chief.  At no other time in history has the head of the worlds most powerful country showed subservience by bowing to leaders of other countries.  He has REPEATEDLY bowed to various leaders. What excuse do you have for this?

[Salamander]

You can praise our current President all you want for percieved advances he has made....but he is an absolute horrible commander in chief.  At no other time in history has the head of the worlds most powerful country showed subservience by bowing to leaders of other countries.  He has REPEATEDLY bowed to various leaders. What excuse do you have for this?

I don't understand why bowing would be a bad thing? But maybe it's a culture thing. It only shows you have respect for someone else which in turn earns respect. Maybe Bush didn't bow but nobody took him serious or thought he deserved respect.

I mean just watch this tiny example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUVYcWxvqaM&feature=related

[Intuit]

Great point Salamander.  

Yoopertemp, that's a common fallacy that was proven false a long time ago.  Many prior leaders have bowed before leaders of other nations.
http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/11/16/following_cultural_conventions_is_not_submission

Yoop, when folks of your worldly view (/sarcasm) usually use the word "Praise" in tandem with our current President, your intent is to imply that there is a blind following... the definition of "offering words of homage as an act of worship".  I didn't "praise" the President.  I provided reasoning, facts, accounts, agreed with and regarded some of his virtues.  Labeling someone who clearly is intelligent, articulate, level-headed,  and well-meaning, is an opinion that by matter of fact, has been demonstrated with multiple accounts.  When folks agreed with Junior, I never accused them of "praising" or worshipping him.  If they agreed with him, there was usually some reason... and I therefore, attacked that reasoning, rather than some perceived result of that reasoning.  Doing the latter without the former, only leads to further degradation of the discussion.

ALSO, in order to understand that behavior YooperTemp, you must first understand the position of being President of the United States.

The President of the United States, serves as many different functions.  But FIRST and FOREMOST when it comes to foreign affairs, he/she is THE HEAD DIPLOMAT; our first foot forward.  That comes BEFORE "Commander-in-Chief."  Diplomacy first, war (a.k.a. "Commander-In-Chief") later.  When in Rome, do as the Romans do.  (within reason)  Bowing for that culture is simply a form of greeting for them; as much as we hand-shake**. You don't make diplomatic gains by arriving and disrespecting a wo/man in his/er own house.***  Once the "pleasantries" are by the way-side, THEN you get into the meat-and-potatoes of appeals, negotiations, threats and other.  CowBOY Diplomacy was proven a failure of common sense, historically and strategically.  That load of "You're either for US or against US." crap works on playgrounds, but not in (our) global reality.  Our prior leadership DESTROYED decades worth of anti-nuclear proliferations policies, in a matter of months.

**  That was the President's intent.  Bowing too far was a simple mistake, which even the best of humans make on occasion.  I never abraded Junior over those simple mistakes.  I abraded Junior over apparent dishonesties and repeated errors in judgment and an unwillingness to validate and/or compromise, but not simple mistakes.  Frankly I think it's telling, that this sort of pettiness is what most of the detractors, are left with.  

***   (India has had a female elected President as well as another African nation's far-leading candidate who was promptly assassinated)

[Salamander]

Still with change I mean how the system works now and continues the same way or worse. Look how many got poor and still like for example wallstreet (http://www.businessday.com.au/executive-style/management/half-of-wall-street-expects-bigger-bonus-in-2010-20101012-16h3y.html) getting even bigger bonusses..Or what about this:

(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-boden/the-quality-of-whose-life_b_749280.html)

Or what about students getting in massive debt. often more then $100.000, and have hard times gettting a (good) job and if not, they fucked.

Or when for example the health care, look how much the docters get paid and then the people, even for something simple (like a broken arm) it cost a stupid amount of money. It's basicly the opposite from communism, but that doesn't mean it's something better in the end.

And the only sullution they have since they always did so in the past when entering a depression, spending more... so the economy can grow again so in effect they can substain the debt. but now it's just getting really tricky!
http://www.ktradionetwork.com/wealth/three-horrifying-facts-about-the-u-s-debt-situation/

So I'm not saying Obama is a bad president, but he can't really change how things work, just some little fixing here and there which doesn't do really that much, just see how much trouble he got with small changes! (again not saying it's his fault).

[Intuit]

Medical bills are one of the top reasons for folks filing bankruptcy; loosing their homes, etcetera.  The programs being put in place were designed to address these issues comprehensively from the top-down.  This includes medical fraud and putting into place, programs that should greatly increase the availability of skilled doctors.**  Our current President by far, wasn't the first person to try and get health care through.  However he was the first, to have a lot of success with it.  This Administration also put into place, the toughest reforms in history; consumer protection protection laws to help guard against unethical practices; "Predatory Lending" for example... which I've observed a case in this very neighborhood across the street.

Education in general is also being addressed: http://www.barackobama.com/issues/education/
From a personal standpoint, one of the tragedies/travesties that I experienced in the last year of high-school, was not being told that there was some option other than massive debt and more irrelevant and rigmarole English courses.  (college)  Basically we were all told, it was BIG College or NOTHING.  Quoting the site above however, "After graduating high school, all Americans should be prepared to attend at least one year of job training or higher education to better equip our workforce for the 21st century economy. We will continue to make higher education more affordable by expanding Pell Grants and initiating new tax credits to make sure any young person who works hard and desires a college education can access it."  This shows me that they realize what I've been saying for years... that our kids should be presented with ALL the options, which includes trade-schools and certification training.  All the skills to do the jobs, but without the massive debts and unrelated courses.  I am glad to see that the Administration realizes that.

I'd also like to point to the Recovery Act, saving jobs and rewarding better educators with incentives that go above and beyond the "no child left behind" legislation with higher standards and oversight.  Just this morning actually, I heard a report on NPR, that highlighted the fact that as a result of the 'no child' program, Administrators were cheating to bring up children's test scores; ensuring that it appears that the school is meeting the standards when they weren't.  (doing things like handing the kids the actual test the night before administering it in class)  These sorts of things have been taken into account and changes made accordingly.

I've also indirectly heard that the President was advocating extending the normal school year.  If we're to build out of this, it will take work, as well as change, sacrifice and time.  Internationally we're way behind and this Administration not only realizes that, but is taking action to help raise the bars.  But in the end, you're right... it WILL be on US to do what they suggest.  (myself included)

As far as wall-street executive salaries and other, you're right in that there is little we can do.  They're private corporations.  But the administration did attach "strings" to the bail-out funding and attempted to reign in some of the bonuses.  But they're private corporations... so there is really very little that the Government can do in that respect, except change tax laws and stiffen penalties for white collar crimes.  But that in itself, still wouldn't necessarily discourage the practice.  The investor and oversight boards for these corporations should do their duties.  However when CFOs are in cahootz and cooking the books, it of course makes their ability to provide oversight, much more difficult.

As far as the jailing population, it's actually the state and federal budgets themselves that are helping to limit the jailing populations.  Basically, most folks are in there over drug offenses.  California for instance, may turn Marijuana offenses into nothing more than a fine... essentially like a traffic ticket.  Read an article a few days ago.  That has the potential to save the state 100s of millions and turn what is essentially a money pit, into a profitable offense... if there is such a thing.  Earlier in the year, the President signed into law, orders that effective immediately, reduced penalties on crack-cocaine offenses so that it is treated more like similar drug offenses. (instead of being way more harsh)

They're only 19 months into it... and what I've posted ain't even the half of it...


**   (salaries drop as more doctors become available to fill the positions - competition)

[Intuit]

-RANT WARNING-

Ya know, I overhear these critics on "newspinion" (noo-se-pinion) shows regularly, commenting on problems as if the administration, the President himself,  hasn't spoken of them and is completely oblivious to it's/their existence, has no plans and isn't/won't do/ing a thing.  (basically being incompetent)  BUt the reality is, not only has he already spoken on them, and early in the year in many cases, but the Administration already well into the planning, structuring and implementation stages.   Some host on MSNBC did this again recently with the shipping jobs to China issues.  It's like, where have you been ?  President has spoken about closing the tax-loopholes that ship jobs to China how many times already ?  Where were you when the news articles about the Administration pressuring China over their currency values floated about on/off over the last ~19 months  ?  What, did you just plug your ears and empty your brain ?  (March 2010 - http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-03-16/u-s-treasury-says-china-should-let-yuan-resume-appreciating.html)  But of course nooobody this guy has on his show, cohost and anchors included, brings this up.  Instead of crosschecking, they chip-in like a buddy 'ol coworker is supposed to.  Hate it when those in the media, like to critique and crosscheck others, but don't like to apply the same and better standards to their own work and that of their on-air coworkers.  (spreading ignorance)

It's so easy just to go along with their implications, especially if you don't remember or wasn't paying attention to what's been said early in the year, last year, during the campaigns even.  So many times I've seen this ol' okeedoke non-sense being played out on stations broadcasting the news, as their opinions.

Speaking of accountability, shipping jobs overseas, and trade-values, we blew-it in terms of that whole "Clunker" program.  We as Americans had an opportunity to turn and support American industry; outside of decisive Government action.  Instead the lot of us went and used that money to buy guess what ?  Something other than GM, Ford, Chrysler vehicles.  So we say screw Michigan, it's our own bottom-line that we're worrying about, then turn around and complain about Walmart driving folks out of business, a "jobless recovery,"  while some erroneously imply that the current Government has no plans to address any of these issues.  A few complained that the President didn't do enough to put the word out about buying American automobiles but those who did so, failed to understand why that's a no-no.  (we're in no position to start a trade war, having their leaders directly discourage the purchase of our products)  So it was upon us (outside of Govt) to use common sense and spread the word, take our own initiative to purchase American.  BUt a huge number of us, didn't.

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/remember-cash-for-clunkers-24855.html
"... According to the report, the program saw, as a twist, the foreign carmakers benefiting the most from the program. In the top five best selling carmakers under the program, only two are American, the rest being Japanese. Toyota was the undisputed leader, with 19.4 percent of the buyers going for the Japanese maker, followed by GM and Ford (17.6 and 14.4, respectively). Honda and Nissan came in fourth and fifth, with 13 and 8.7 percent, respectively. ..."

WT_...

[Salamander]

Big problem is that since the American economy is more then 70% consumption, Japan or China got it visa versa (so most production) and guess who are buying US debts?? Which in turns means their currency won't rise as much, which is good for them (better exports). A strong currency is good for the US, then you buy more with a dollar (otherwise inflation). And yes then say they should rise their currency, but not looking at themself!? The US want them to buy their treasury so yes they can't really say something about that, when they are part of the problem. Also a reason why Japan can live with 300% debt/gdp, and why a big debt/gdp ratio is something way worse for America.

So free trade is nice but I guess it's too free, where country's get too depended from a global market/other country's + that the middle class is disappearing, and since consumption has become so important.... & the differences between poor and rich becoming only bigger.., you get a big problem.

So can you spend your way out of this or is there just something really wrong in the basics, where you can't spend against?

And yes the president is way better than Bush was, but I don't think his sollutions will work to fight this problem enough and when he would, everyone would turn against him (just see how hard it was to get this health care reform in place), which they already are doing, but while Bush was in office, they didnt had a big problem with it (exceptions there..), only when they personally see that it goes bad in the US, then of course they are too happy to blaim Obama for all the current problems. They do have 1 point, the spending got worse (and just for a big part because of the pas administration (although it's just that again the system in essence is just unhealthy).
In Europe they are tighting the government spending, at least. Yes they also got in big debts after saving the banks but now they are really tighting the belt.

About the Clunker program: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAFYYqenW8c

[Intuit]

"Worse" spending would be to continue with business-as-usual.  Much of that "spending" has actually been diverted to "investments," and as the linked article shows, some of that has begun to pay back already for auto and banking.  If we had simply "spent" the money, none of it would come back.  It's still a win-win because in addition to money coming back, we have something to show for it.  A reinvigorated (and more importantly changed) auto industry, and a stabilized banking and currency system along with a host of related regulatory protections and changes.  As said before, you have to spend money to make money...

Yes, that's one of the reasons his administration has placed such a heavy emphasis on education.  We have to innovate our way back into being a society that originates things.  That's why the Japanese have been so successful.  In fact, the President recently pointed to Apple as a leading example in the way that we'll need to change; mentioning the iPad.  His Administration's approach is a multi-path, comprehensive approach.  It's not quite as simplistic as "spending our way out of it."  That's oversimplification.  You saying that, is as if I said that you wanted to shutdown government.

You've admitted that the problem is systemic and that spending is a problem.  But you can't have it both ways.  In order to solve the systemic issues, we're going to have to draw on the lessons of the past Great Depression era, and invest in infrastructure.  The fact remains, that you can't decrease spending yet at the same time, invest in the things that have historically, lifted us from the depths of a recession.  Simply reducing spending, is precisely what we did following the 1929 stock market crash.  Government naturally had less tax revenue, so naturally reduced spending.  But ironically that's why the subsequent depression lasted for a decade.  INvestment in the countries infrastructures, including roads and education, (and wars,) basically government investment, was in large part, the way in which we pulled out of it.  But all that was mentioned already back in the very first post.

I don't think we'll be able to go backwards in terms of free trade.  It's just a reality we'll have to adapt to, rather than ignore.  It's a reality created by advancements in technology, pricing and availability.  Borders are disappearing.  Companies are working to break down the language barriers using special software.  (another achilles heel for Americans)  Mega huge super-cargo ships that weren't possible years ago, are out there in increasing numbers.  Shipping technologies alone have had untold affects on our ability to efficiently ship things internationally.

About the video, his statement that it originates from Germany does need fact-checking, but regardless, so what if it did ?  Other nations used some of our stimulus ideas too.   Just more evidence that borders are becoming less relevant; that cross-communications are ever improving. Conversely, the Republicans are ignoring ideas garnered from the Great Depression era, endeavoring to repeat what was done after it.  A lot of folks indeed were irresponsible with the clunker program.  No argument there.  But there were also many who weren't.  That side of it is in part why I labeled the above post, "a rant."  Rants are a good way to cross-examine things, but they don't provide the entire picture; only the negative aspects of it.  (and the way he put it, there were NO positive aspects)

[Salamander]

Since again consumption has become so important, the past and current administration where/are stimulating it so that the economy grows with less taxes and so on, while they should put higher vat taxes on consumer products for example. Same deal why this housing crisis started in a sence, where many people could took a higher loan and use it for 'consumption'. Basicly the people (for a large part) have become ''consumer junkies'', and where the government has become the 'drugs' dealer, while this ''drugs'' dealer, buying more and bigger cars, where he needs to sell even more drugs to support his expensive cars.

Or it's like over here with soccer. The good players get a crazy amount of money, the clubs buy them, get heavy in debt and when they loose matches, miss money and then they need money from their home city/state. There should be cap on how much a soccer player can earn. Those good soccer players, get rich on a fairly young age, they just buy the stupiest things, having party's or weddings which where money isn't a factor and the clubs themself get in money problems.


With worse, I just mean ''more'', they don't really have the money for it, the economy must always grow, no matter what. Somethimes it's just healthy to take a step back and if you never do, you face yourself in the end.

About 'free trade', company's only goal is basicly ''more money', so they put their  factory's in country's like China or others where they have cheap labor to make more profit, then their products must cross half the globe with very polluting ships/trucks and so on.
So that's what I mean, maybe it's to free, because basicly this is just stupid how things work today. Same thing with food. Over here we have very strict rules on farmers, but then they can't compete with other country's where they don't have strict rules, still we import their food because we have this 'free trade'.

So if it's like a soccer match we should have some rules in the game, otherwise it just becomes a mess, which it is now.

[Intuit]

Another example of some media outlet, (local newscaster in this case,) reporting the news as their opinion... newspinion or should I say, noosepinion. (basically they're out to hang the Administration)  Yesterday this local news caster reports that the Administration has finally "caved to pressure" and lifted "the ban" on oil drilling in order to "relieve the suffering" ot those 'left jobless' as a result of "the ban", in the Gulf.  Left it at that.  Hog and wash.  Half expected her to repeat the earlier refuted non-sense, that he was the first or only President to respond with a moratorium on such a matter.  A national news caster got it right, stating that the Administration originally announced that "the moratorium" (not "the ban") was to be in place, until there were reasonable protections in place to help prevent a repeat of the same and similar situations.  Of course investigations, at least those done right, take time to conclude.  Even more time to develop new procedures, solutions, technology and equipment, and finally regulations.  Then they played back a video snippet of the President announcing that new regulations and oversight, was in place to help prevent such situations from reoccurring.  Grrr...

=============

Salamander, the problem with simply jacking tariffs, a.k.a. raising taxes on imports, is that other Governments turn-around and do the same thing.  The only way that's going to have any amount of positive effect, is if the Administration can get the international community, (not just the EU,) to do the same thing; on targeted nations like China.  In fact that's what the Administration has been working on in the event that China doesn't cave; in a news article read yesterday.  It's the same reason why "sanctions,**" have little affect when only one or a few nations agree to abide by them.  Running a nation isn't a shoot-from-the-hip affair.  There are usually good reasons behind the way this Administrations, including the prior, (ugh,) does things.

I totally agree with: "With worse, I just mean ‘’more’’, they don’t really have the money for it, the economy must always grow, no matter what. Somethimes it’s just healthy to take a step back and if you never do, you face yourself in the end."

I've felt that way as well.  At some point, we may have to accept that there will be inevitable sacrifices made.  But we're not at that point yet, and there's still a lot of fight left in us.  I also see what you're saying about free trade and how in some situations, it comes back to bite us.  Let me draw a parallel... many people like to smoke.  I do not.***  Regardless, I don't expect others to live my life.  I am one of those (increasingly strange) people that seem to believe in free choice.  But it is also realized that a good portion of my taxes paid, are going and will go, to pay for people who have made the choice to spend their lives smoking.  That is simply the price of freedom and the right to choose for one's self.  We're free to make mistakes.  Free trade isn't all bad.  Countries that heavily restrict free trade are economically, technologically and culturally stagnated.  But yes it can be abused and you're well aware of the how/why.  We have to accept that there will be some bad along with the good.  The Government can do some things, and as mentioned the current Administration is building to action.  But they can't restrict peoples' freedom.  It's unfortunate that true freedom, must include the freedom to make mistakes, but that's how it is.  That's how it will always be.  It's up to us make the right decisions about our own practices, and try to influence others, to make similar choices.

But you're right, $100, $200 big (19", 24") screen flat-panels, and $30 DVD-RW drives, for us is unsustainable.  We could never hope to compete with that and expect to still maintain our current standard of living.  So the question to ask is, can our service based economy export itself ?  Yes, and there are limited examples of that all over the globe.  From Venezuela where our oil rigging expertise has been put to use, to Japan where we have a CEO heading Sony.  Right now, qualified personnel who would be capable of exporting their services are limited.  That's one of the things this Administration hopes to change.

**  (the term having been used rather loosely by prior Administrations -- can't call a full-blown decade+ long military blockade, "sanctions," when by definition it is an act of war -- Iraq)
***   (In fact, won't even take tylenol, aspirin, etc.)

[Salamander]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAZuQiJUrIQ
The Republicans and Democrats play for the same team. It is all window dressing to keep us divided cheering for our 'Red' team or our 'Blue' team when in reality, they are of the same cloth. There is no change. It is the same basic message only it is now delivered with a new eloquence. If we are to put our wedge issues aside and listen to our conscience to what is just, what is right and if we are to judge a tree by the fruit it bears we can clearly see that our government is rotting on the branch. The players of each team will never enact any accountability on each other. The people of this country must demand it.

[Salamander]

Another example of some media outlet, (local newscaster in this case,) reporting the news as their opinion... newspinion or should I say, noosepinion. (basically they're out to hang the Administration)  Yesterday this local news caster reports that the Administration has finally "caved to pressure" and lifted "the ban" on oil drilling in order to "relieve the suffering" ot those 'left jobless' as a result of "the ban", in the Gulf.  Left it at that.  Hog and wash.  Half expected her to repeat the earlier refuted non-sense, that he was the first or only President to respond with a moratorium on such a matter.  A national news caster got it right, stating that the Administration originally announced that "the moratorium" (not "the ban") was to be in place, until there were reasonable protections in place to help prevent a repeat of the same and similar situations.  Of course investigations, at least those done right, take time to conclude.  Even more time to develop new procedures, solutions, technology and equipment, and finally regulations.  Then they played back a video snippet of the President announcing that new regulations and oversight, was in place to help prevent such situations from reoccurring.  Grrr...

=============

Salamander, the problem with simply jacking tariffs, a.k.a. raising taxes on imports, is that other Governments turn-around and do the same thing.  The only way that's going to have any amount of positive effect, is if the Administration can get the international community, (not just the EU,) to do the same thing; on targeted nations like China.  In fact that's what the Administration has been working on in the event that China doesn't cave; in a news article read yesterday.  It's the same reason why "sanctions,**" have little affect when only one or a few nations agree to abide by them.  Running a nation isn't a shoot-from-the-hip affair.  There are usually good reasons behind the way this Administrations, including the prior, (ugh,) does things.

I totally agree with: "With worse, I just mean ‘’more’’, they don’t really have the money for it, the economy must always grow, no matter what. Somethimes it’s just healthy to take a step back and if you never do, you face yourself in the end."

I've felt that way as well.  At some point, we may have to accept that there will be inevitable sacrifices made.  But we're not at that point yet, and there's still a lot of fight left in us.  I also see what you're saying about free trade and how in some situations, it comes back to bite us.  Let me draw a parallel... many people like to smoke.  I do not.***  Regardless, I don't expect others to live my life.  I am one of those (increasingly strange) people that seem to believe in free choice.  But it is also realized that a good portion of my taxes paid, are going and will go, to pay for people who have made the choice to spend their lives smoking.  That is simply the price of freedom and the right to choose for one's self.  We're free to make mistakes.  Free trade isn't all bad.  Countries that heavily restrict free trade are economically, technologically and culturally stagnated.  But yes it can be abused and you're well aware of the how/why.  We have to accept that there will be some bad along with the good.  The Government can do some things, and as mentioned the current Administration is building to action.  But they can't restrict peoples' freedom.  It's unfortunate that true freedom, must include the freedom to make mistakes, but that's how it is.  That's how it will always be.  It's up to us make the right decisions about our own practices, and try to influence others, to make similar choices.

But you're right, $100, $200 big (19", 24") screen flat-panels, and $30 DVD-RW drives, for us is unsustainable.  We could never hope to compete with that and expect to still maintain our current standard of living.  So the question to ask is, can our service based economy export itself ?  Yes, and there are limited examples of that all over the globe.  From Venezuela where our oil rigging expertise has been put to use, to Japan where we have a CEO heading Sony.  Right now, qualified personnel who would be capable of exporting their services are limited.  That's one of the things this Administration hopes to change.

**  (the term having been used rather loosely by prior Administrations -- can't call a full-blown decade+ long military blockade, "sanctions," when by definition it is an act of war -- Iraq)
***   (In fact, won't even take tylenol, aspirin, etc.)

You a good guy, it's not that I really disagree with you, but you just have this belief for the better, especially with Obama in charge now. Others had it with Bush, believing he was the answer after 9-11. So now Obama is the answer for this financial crisis in which you have faith for the better coming up with many examples, which again or not that bad perse but not something that will change things for the better in the end (IMO).

About this free trade/china thing (dutch > english google translator:)

"American money chases inflation later on press'
 by Ronald van Gessel
 AMSTERDAM -  LONDON - The euro rose $ 1.41 yesterday to close in the expectation that the U.S. central bank, the "Fed", in November the money presses are running again fully to the stagnant economy going to get.  U.S. interest rates can not go down.  Thus, the dormant "currency war" a new phase.  The U.S. wants the rest of the world impose inflation, while the same rest of the world just like to see Americans finally get to cut spending and reduce its huge deficit.


It is a choice between two evils.  Significant cuts to the cooling U.S. economy in a state of deflation market with falling prices causing consumers to postpone their purchases.  This causes paralysis of the economy.  The U.S. central bank wants this "Japanese ghost image" at all times and avoid trying to stimulate the economy by pushing for unlimited money.  Precisely because of the availability of this 'monetary weapon' is now argues that the Americans will win.
 Where in the G20 still to be discussed are the "terms of surrender" for the rest of the world.  How far should the exchange be protected against a weakening dollar?  And how should the other countries their economic policies in line with the expansionary U.S. monetary policy that the risk of higher inflation in him?  Bright spot for the pension funds is that interest rates will rise again.
 "This is all wrong," says Professor of Monetary Economics Sylvester Eijffinger (Tilburg University).  "The Americans refuse to" derisken '(the risks and balance sheets to get cut, ed), while Europe will have already fully engaged. The message is clear: the U.S. will withdraw from the debt crisis and the works through inflation. "
 The balance of the Fed is now three to four times inflated by $ 2.5 trillion of money creation (and prop up banks bought bonds).  "Here comes later as another $ 1 trillion in" fears Eijffinger.  "Next thing you know, we have another 4 or 5% inflation. The Chinese, with $ 2 trillion U.S. government securities in its portfolio, just missed out and can not help that their U.S. investments fall in value. Obama is already busy with his re-election and the problems if the U.S. advance, is only whether the inflationary crisis before or after the coming elections. The euro is up sharply in the coming months. "
 Pigeons

 According to Eijffinger Obama to the board of the Fed is almost exclusively 'pigeon' was appointed at the central bank is not independent anymore but his opinion is on a leash of politics.  The Obama sees great dangers in reducing inflation, which at worst can turn into deflation.  Geplofte the property bubble has left deep scars.
 The Fed has absolutely no appetite for 'Japanese states' and will next month for hundreds of billions of bonds from banks to buy new pumping liquidity into the market, it is expected.  "In fact you will see a repeat of what happened after the collapse of the Internet bubble in 2001, only with different means and on a much larger scale," said Eijffinger.

[Intuit]

It's not "faith," Salamander.  But you probably already know that.  Bush Jr., actually did a good job following 9/11.  His "War on Terror" strategy initially, was brilliant.  But then it morphed.  He went totally off the wall on the whole Iraq and also wanting to overthrow entire Governments even though they themselves were attacked by the very same terrorist group(s) who attacked us.

In short, it has to make sense.  There were times when Junior made sense, yet took a flacking for the stance in the media; however those times I supported his decision simply because they made sense.  Prove to me that history doesn't apply to this situation.  Prove to me that reducing Government spending and ceasing it's current investment plans, won't result in a 10 year depression, as we saw post 1929.  Prove to me that minus the bank bailouts, minus the auto-industry stabilization programs and loans, minus the stimulus, matters wouldn't be much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, worse... basically a repeat of 1929.  Convince me that the financial reforms sought and put into place, aren't a positive step in helping to prevent a repeat of the same situation.  Prove to me that McCain was the better decision for 2008.  Convince me that our attempts to invest in education, infrastructure, etcetera, is a bad idea.  Again, it's about what makes sense, not who is in office.  President Obama isn't the second coming of Jesus, he is a capable and competent individual who has made it into political office as the President.

So far I've heard a lot about what the current situation is... basically what we're well aware of.  History not withstanding, what we haven't heard, are viable solutions and better alternatives, to the problems currently at hand.  'Look. I am not an ideologue... I'm just not.  If you have a good idea, I will use it. .... So far I haven't heard one credible idea that any economist would stand behind.' - approximate phrasing

[Intuit]

One other thing... why is it, that NONE of this deficit spending, was an issue, 21 months ago ?  (when it was actually WORSE)

http://zfacts.com/p/318.html
http://zfacts.com/p/1159.html#8593
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0swVSQgb6KY

They think we're complete blithering idiots.  Are we !?!

http://zfacts.com/p/519.html

[Salamander]

From a link I posted before: Whatever the size of a government’s liabilities, what matters ultimately is how they compare to the resources available to service them.
http://www.businessinsider.com/dept-to-gdp-revenue-2010-8#ixzz12ZMkq1oD

Look at the revenue/gdp and debt/revenue.. Those links above don't tell much. The US government is the biggest job creator (for a big party they got the luxery that the $ is the world trading currency, their income compared with their debt, the ability to repay her debts are these days simply put, not possible.

The US will probaly inflate herself out, coming up with many evil tricks, to get her way, the Q is will the rest of the world accept it? Or get to realise, they are better off with with a new world trading currency (for example).

Anyways it will get very interesting the coming years..

[Intuit]

Actually small business employs most people in this nation, not Government.  Also, "those links above don't tell much"... you're joking right !?  By the way, debt to income is exactly what those links were discussing.  Also again, we are aware of the problem.  But the question is, do you have anything other than complaints, or are you saying the only answer to the past and present situations, was to allow the banking and currency systems to collapse, allow the auto-industry to go bye-bye, allow our education systems to continue to falter, to basically repeat what was done, leading up to and follow the Great Depression ?  Why is it so hard to get a straight answer on that ?

[Salamander]

Its Debt / GDP they are talking about, not about the income of the government. As I said about saving the banks/auto industry its basicly; damned if you do, damned if you don't. They bought it with their creditcard, who says this will not trigger the next much bigger depression? where nothing really is saved but just a much bigger debt/hole. The fed saved them basicly, and the fed already warned the government it should get their spending under control.

“Well-designed rules can help promote improved fiscal performance,” Bernanke said today in a speech in Providence, Rhode Island. A rule “could provide an important signal to the public that the Congress is serious about achieving long-term fiscal sustainability, which itself would be good for confidence,” he said.
 Bernanke provided one of his most detailed prescriptions yet for reducing the record federal budget deficit. He said in congressional testimony in June that unless the U.S. makes a “strong commitment to fiscal responsibility,” the country in the long run will have neither economic growth nor fiscal stability.
 â€œIt is crucially important that we put U.S. fiscal policy on a sustainable path,” Bernanke said at the Rhode Island Public Expenditure Council’s annual dinner, where he was invited to speak by Senator Jack Reed, a Democrat from Rhode Island and member of the banking committee.
 â€œThe only real question” is whether adjustments to taxes and spending will come from a “careful and deliberative process” or from a “rapid and painful response to a looming or actual fiscal crisis,” Bernanke said.

So lets say, the only way to get change is basicly; less spending! That change should Obama have brought, that's what is helping the country, so quit the war, cut defense budget for example, even when that means more people without jobs and so on. But now they choosen more of the same. Oh yea sorry, when they would there would be less consumption.. so no way out basicly then the hard way, which only got harder..

Now ofcourse Obama don't want to do such things making him very unpopular.. So now after all this spending:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39542375/ns/business-us_business/
(as example)

Long detailed article about this crisis from an EU think tank:
http://www.leap2020.eu/GEAB-N-48-is-available-Global-systemic-crisis-LEAP-E2020-s-analysis-of-39-countries-risks-2010-2014-A-collective-but_a5295.html

[Intuit]

"Its Debt / GDP they are talking about, not about the income of the government. "  False.  It's apparent that the reason "those links don't contain much," is because you didn't read them.  They discuss BOTH.

[Salamander]

From what I see when they talk about national income they talk about GDP. It's just a line from Debt/GDP in history, not the debt/revenue, which is way over 400% now which makes the ability to repay the debts very hard.

Just saw this, and he says basicly the same thing I say the whole time.
http://www.infowars.com/exclusive-paul-craig-roberts-interview-decline-of-the-american-empire/

So this explains why you can't compare with previous admnistrations (about the debt) that the situation can be resolved because the US was in ''worse shape'' before (in fact it's worse, back then when it recovered all on production now it's a slave from consumption)..it's simply a quite other story today.

[Intuit]

One other thing... why is it, that NONE of this deficit spending, was an issue, 21 months ago ?  (when it was actually WORSE)

http://zfacts.com/p/318.html
http://zfacts.com/p/1159.html#8593
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0swVSQgb6KY

They think we're complete blithering idiots.  Are we !?!

http://zfacts.com/p/519.html

"The annual deficit vs the national debt
The annual deficit is this year's spending minus this year's income. If we spend $900B with income of $600B in one year, the annual deficit is $300B. That makes the national debt go up by $300B.

The annual deficit is how much the debt increases each year. On any day we can ask how much the annual deficit was over the preceeding year and find it by subtracting the national debt a year ago from what it is now.

That's how the graphs above were made. You can find the national debt to the penny here for almost every day back through 1993.  

 .....................

This chart shows the total deficit in dollars, although it would be more correct to show the deficit as a fraction of total economic activity (for example, Gross Domestic Product -- new chart coming!).  Since total economic activity has only changed by a few percent per year recently, the overall picture will be quite similar to what this chart shows.

http://money.howstuffworks.com/personal-finance/debt-management/debt4.htm
"All of these terms calculate the difference between the amount of money the government takes in each year in taxes and investments and the amount the government spends."  .................. "Obviously, the United States is not alone in holding a large national debt. But a better indicator of a nation's indebtedness is the ratio of its public debt to its GDP, or total national income."

Indeed it will be more difficult to wreak a profit when you don't have industries to stand behind as a result of stagnation and world modernization.  The information technology revolution fueled the last, short-lived pay-down that immediately reversed itself with the prior Administration.  That brings up one other point which I've been meaning to mention; as the rest of the World catches up to the US in standard of living, (China previously set to eclipse the US in miles of paved roads by 2017,) so should their wage standards and currency values.  That means more people in other nations could then afford to purchase goods and services from the US.  (one of the obvious benefits to a declining dollar value)  Even with a closing gap, EPA and OSEA will however, continue to make it cheaper for foreign companies.  Personal preference for minimizing the amount of dangerous chemicals release into the environment.  

One thing I should again point out, is that investment, is required to turn around the very circumstances that you mentioned... that make this recovery more difficult.

I don't have time to review the Roberts guy at the moment, but may later.  Thanks...

[Salamander]

Quantitative Easing Explained:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTUY16CkS-k&fmt=37&hd=1&autoplay=1

[Intuit]

Hey Sal.

There are a few fallacies lobbed in there but I agree with the overall point.  However they failed to provide any alternative answers to the steps that have been taken.  Personally, I've thought about it, as though a CEO were buying up stock in his own company in order to artificially inflate it's value.  Most of the changes they spoke of, were implemented while Congress was under Republican control.  However, the Democrats are not off the hook because they by and large didn't fight it.  (in fact many of the changes were bipartisan in nature)  During the years that Bush was in office, they changed some of the algorithms that Government uses to gauge economic progress; to paint a more rosey picture in my opinion.  I was watching/experiencing a similar (but worse) oddity happen during ~2002~2004, where the price of food, energy and housing was skyrocketing, wages relatively stagnant, (though not in reversal,) but inflation being quoted as being at it's lowest point in whatever years.  It didn't make any sense then, and folks are only JUST NOW realizing and complaining that it doesn't make any sense now.  Curious about that timing.  

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7009217n&tag=component.1
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2010-11-16/ireland-and-european-debt-crisis
http://www.npr.org/2010/11/16/131348732/gregg-u-s-needs-to-find-the-path-to-fiscal-responsibility

Our Government, and in followed suit, those abroad, have been pressuring China over it's currency values.  But this all comes back in some way or other, to US, THE US CITIZEN, shipping our OWN jobs overseas to China by the continued purchase of cheap goods.  I saw the very (large, blue) umbrella that my Brother has (and already needs to be restitched,) in this report here: http://abcnews.go.com/WN/China/  Until we as CITIZENS, learn to take some responsibility in all this, and do something about this trade imbalance, through education, hard work, infrastructure investment, sacrifice, RESTRAINT, I don't see an end to this correction; at least not until a greater portion of the World's population are up to matching and/or bettering our standard of living.  (but then, the Worlds energy resources may be strained to the "breaking" point of that standard)  There may be plateaus, a.k.a. "new normals" established from time-to-time..