To get to know John Kerry the best, you should ask the men who served with him.

[BallisticGelatin]

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Wow, that is beautifull friend, now if you could please, please, go and find the "men that served with" GW Bush, in Vietnam. I'd love to read about that. Please point me to where I can read about how GW Bush served his country in Vietnam. THanks in advance, buddy.

Ahhh...now that Bill Clinton can't run for office we are all concerned about a candidates' military service....

[Mefistofeles]

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And those things you mentioned are very very broad ideas involving hundreds of billions of dollars.

If you really want to know how the world works follow the money.  

[YoungBuck]

Quote
Originally posted by: BallisticGelatin

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Wow, that is beautifull friend, now if you could please, please, go and find the "men that served with" GW Bush, in Vietnam. I'd love to read about that. Please point me to where I can read about how GW Bush served his country in Vietnam. THanks in advance, buddy.

Ahhh...now that Bill Clinton can't run for office we are all concerned about a candidates' military service....

          YOu shoot, you miss, my friend. Clinton was labeled "draft dodger"  by every Republican in the USA. You might be the only one in the whole of USA that  does not know that.  Where were you , out of the country?  I think everybody  including 3y.o. and under  knew  Clinton  was  labeled as a "draft dodger". HOwever I do not remember  Clinton  or anybody on his team  questioning  Bob Doles war record.  
          What under  discussion here  is whether  someone   who  was not in Vietnam and may be even unable to point out Vietnam on hte map should question
Kerrys record , who by the way volunteered for the duty in Vietnam.  
         Is it  nesessary  to be in the war to run for president----NO.  BUt at the  same time its funny when pseudo soldier questions  real soldier.  

[BallisticGelatin]

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HOwever I do not remember Clinton or anybody on his team questioning Bob Doles war record.

Well DUH, Of course he didn't question Dole's war record.  Dole served with distinction and got a permanent injury as a result of his service....Kinda difficult to question that while Clinton was off somewhere smoking the Sweet Chiba in Canada or somewhere during Vietnam....

That would be like Clinton trying to bust on some other guy about being a fornicating hound dog....it just doesn't fly.

And for the record there Bucko, I don't recall GW actually questioning Commissar Kerry's war record....the Swift Boat guys are, but they are a seperate entity.  

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BG why do you think its a good idea to claim things are unamerican? Do you really think thats a good way to try to sway votes or peoples opinions? I cant understand the republican strategy this year, its sickening. WHy is the McCarthy strategy a good idea? It just hurts the country and their own party.

Nope...you must be seeing things that aren't there....I don't see the word 'unamerican' in any of my posts up 'til this one anyway....Lay off the 'medicinal' maryjane for a few days...ok?  

[Rocky]

BG "And for the record there Bucko, I don't recall GW actually questioning Commissar Kerry's war record....the Swift Boat guys are, but they are a seperate entity. "


Well you show how much you know about politics.  Advertisements dont just happen.  Karl Rove knows every anti Kerry plan that there is in the country.  Thats his job, and theres someone on Kerrys team doing the same thing.  Millions and millions of dollars arent spent without anyone knowing or conversing with each other.

[Rocky]

Scutmonkey and others.  Please read this.  The biggest critic of Kerry on that ad who has been all over the talk show circuit just was proven to be lying.  His accounts of hte incident right after it happenbed said there was fire on all units involved, and also he had won his own bronze star at that time and his medal cited that he was under fire during the rescue help.  SO basically his afadavit was a lie he just gave.  

[ScutMonkey]

Quote
Originally posted by: Rocky
Scutmonkey and others.  Please read this.  The biggest critic of Kerry on that ad who has been all over the talk show circuit just was proven to be lying.  His accounts of hte incident right after it happenbed said there was fire on all units involved, and also he had won his own bronze star at that time and his medal cited that he was under fire during the rescue help.  SO basically his afadavit was a lie he just gave.

*shrug*

That's not the guy I saw on TV.

Regardless, this is what we get for McCain-Fiengold.  The law of unintended consequences is on us again.

I actually heard an interesting bit on the radio a few days ago talking about Swift boats.com and moveon.org.  Basically they were asking why the candidates aren't damning these sites and what they do and the guy said they're probably being advised by their legal council not to because if they do and those sites stop doing what they're doing, then the candidates will be in breach of McCain-Fiengold which limits campaign contributions.  By stopping those ads with their condemnation they are linking themselves with the organizations and their funding practices, which are funded in ways that are clearing in breach of campaign finance laws, specifically McCain-Fiengold.  

So now, instead of fat cats giving tons of money to candidates and the candidates having some sort of ethics in this, you get George Soros with moveon.org and that Texas billionaire and swiftboat.com.  This is such a wonderful new developement for politics (/sarcasm).

No Rocky, I don't think there are links between Bush/Swiftboats or Kerry/Moveon because it's too dangerous.  All these guys need to make this disaster worse is to get linked and indicted.  The media would hold on with both hands to a story like that.  Especially if it was Bush.

[Rocky]

Scut you can still pretend they arent connected. But when the same people give to both sources and theres that much riding on everything thats said.  There are conversations that cross over.  You go through a couple different sources and you can say you arent linked anymore.  But Im sure you also dont think Haliburton got any special treatment by Cheney, hah

[YoungBuck]

Quote
By Ballistic gel

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BG why do you think its a good idea to claim things are unamerican? Do you really think thats a good way to try to sway votes or peoples opinions? I cant understand the republican strategy this year, its sickening. WHy is the McCarthy strategy a good idea? It just hurts the country and their own party.

Nope...you must be seeing things that aren't there....I don't see the word 'unamerican' in any of my posts up 'til this one anyway....Lay off the 'medicinal' maryjane for a few days...ok?

   ScutMonkey dude,  OK no Email to you  but just an example here of a personal attack by  the  BAllistic dude   thats gone  loony on Rocky  here.
What, is he implying that  Rocky smoking marihuanna here.  BAn him, you hear me  or do I have  to  personally  send e mail to Jasper.

 Post a message  and warn him  just  like this your post from another thread.:
Scutmonkey:

             "Why don't you actually try debating for a change Young Buck. You implied Arrow is acting like a child. That's not debating, that's insulting someone and you've been warned against that time and time and time and time again. It's old and tired. Keep it up and I'll ban you again and make it permanent. I've got plenty of email complaints about you saved on my HD to forward on to Jasper and Rocky to back it up."


        Ballistic is not debating, Ballistic is implying that  Rocky is smoking marihuanna here "that's insulting someone ".  Warn him, ban  him  ---otherwise  STFU!!!!! Understood?


          "I've got plenty of email complaints about you saved on my HD "   my take is they are by  the  same  "swifty boat veterans" that were in Carl Roves meat locker  for the past aprox. 30 years and  have  been recently unleashed   against Kerry  and apparently me .

[ScutMonkey]

Quote
Originally posted by: Rocky
Scut you can still pretend they arent connected. But when the same people give to both sources and theres that much riding on everything thats said.  There are conversations that cross over.  You go through a couple different sources and you can say you arent linked anymore.  But Im sure you also dont think Haliburton got any special treatment by Cheney, hah

Fine then moveon and it's hitler ads were motivated by the Democratic party.  George Soros is heavily connected to both moveon and the Dems.  Soros is also talking about bailing out Air America, which is horribly anti-Bush with Al Franken calling anyone with an R attached to their name all kinds of childish names.  Not to mention all of those actors making horrible attacks on Bush at various rallies including that one at MSG.  Those actors and musicians were all at the DNC a couple weeks ago spewing their verbal garbage as well, with some of them even playing onstage.  You want to play this connection game, then it works both ways.  Kerry has never ONCE denounced the horrible things those actors and musicians said about GWB at that Madison Square Garden show with Whoopi Goldberg referencing her vagina in connection with GWB and Kerry was standing RIGHT THERE!  Get off your high horse on this issue because Kerry is just as much a hypocrit about any of this if he's going to pretend he's outraged.  He needs to ignore it just like Bush ignores all the garbage the various anti-Bush factions are slinging at him because that's what all of this is.  Garbage from political pretenders that want to be a part of a debate that they have no ability to discuss in a rational way.

The original point.  I don't think Kerry or Bush are pulling the strings on either of these organizations.  I don't think either is telling them what to attack the other for and what to release.  I think they are supported by some of the same people Kerry and Bush are getting money from, but direct input?  No and if you think Bush is directly responsible for swiftboatwhatever.com then you're seeing conspiracies in the dark.

[ScutMonkey]

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Originally posted by: YoungBuck
        Ballistic is not debating, Ballistic is implying that  Rocky is smoking marihuanna here "that's insulting someone ".  Warn him, ban  him  ---otherwise  STFU!!!!! Understood?

I'm done with you YoungBuck.  You're banned.  You can appeal to jasper.schnieder@sudhian.com or rocky.schnieder@sudhian.com.

[BallisticGelatin]

"ScutMonkey dude, OK no Email to you but just an example here of a personal attack by the BAllistic dude thats gone loony on Rocky here.
What, is he implying that Rocky smoking marihuanna here. BAn him, you hear me or do I have to personally send e mail to Jasper."



Dude, chill out...that is not an attack...just wee bit of sarcasm...It's not like I accused you or Rocky of eating babies or having relations with farm animals....However, I have noticed that some on here like to throw the ignorant slam around here pretty freely...Last time I checked, calling someone ignorant or stupid is an insult...But maybe things are different here in Florida...

[Rocky]

BG- watch yourself.


Scut-  Many democrats said the hitler ads were bad and asked moveon to take it down and stop promoting it.  Kerry was one of those democrats.  You may wonder why the hitler ad was removed shortly after it was posted.  It didnt go on national TV, millions and millions of dollars werent spent to run national compaign ads.  Its not a comparable situation to the swiftboats.  If you want to compare it, go ahead, it makes teh democrats look like saints.

[BallisticGelatin]

I did for about an hour...but all I did was watch TV.

[ScutMonkey]

Quote
Originally posted by: Rocky
BG- watch yourself.


Scut-  Many democrats said the hitler ads were bad and asked moveon to take it down and stop promoting it.  Kerry was one of those democrats.  You may wonder why the hitler ad was removed shortly after it was posted.  It didnt go on national TV, millions and millions of dollars werent spent to run national compaign ads.  Its not a comparable situation to the swiftboats.  If you want to compare it, go ahead, it makes teh democrats look like saints.

Whatever man.  GWB has already come out and said he has no desire or reason to question Kerry's military record and has even praised him for his "service to his country" but for some reason everyone wants to believe this is all GWB's fault.  I don't have to continue hammering on the Hitler ads.  I can go out to Moveon.org and find plenty of other tripe to post like their ad saying the Communists had Pravda and the Republicans have Fox.  Or how about their "He knew" ad when clearly he's been vindicated on those charges by a bipartisan investigation in congress.  

And I noticed you didn't say a word about that MSG event with Kerry standing front and center which was downright pathetic.  Kerry doesn't have a leg to stand on with his accussations, unless he enjoys the lable hypocrit.

[ScutMonkey]

Quote
Originally posted by: Rocky
Scutmonkey and others.  Please read this.  The biggest critic of Kerry on that ad who has been all over the talk show circuit just was proven to be lying.  His accounts of hte incident right after it happenbed said there was fire on all units involved, and also he had won his own bronze star at that time and his medal cited that he was under fire during the rescue help.  SO basically his afadavit was a lie he just gave.

Well now there's a problem with that.  Turns out his own bronze star was based on Kerry's report of the event, not his own.  Even the guy that signed Kerry's report is now saying the report was inaccurate and this is a guy that has campaigned for Kerry on several occassions in the past.  Read all about it here.

Of course, I love how "objective" this article is:

Quote
Thirty-five years later, we may never know what the exact truth is. We do know this group has received major support from some wealthy Republicans.  

As if that's supposed to prove something.  Excuse me but is Michael Moore a Democrat?  Ummmm...is he supporting Kerry?  Umm....did he pour millions into making an entire movie blasting Bush?  Ummmm...is Soros spending millions of dollars trying to get Bush defeated?  

*sigh*

The media will talk like this all day long, but they refuse to discuss Kerry's ties with billionaires, actors, musicians, etc in anything other than a glowing warm fuzzy light.  They aren't odious string pullers with a nefarious agenda like Republicans are.  They're honest concerned citizens pouring their dollars into a valiant effort.  Makes me ill.  I don't see how anything this Republican real estate guy is doing is any different from anyone associated with moveon.org or any one of the other anti-Bush sites being run by big money Democrats.  The dude is pouring his money into a cause, getting Bush reelected, and he happened to find some guys that served with Kerry who've been dogging Kerry for 35 years, which the article glosses over very briefly.  These swiftboat guys were complaining before the Republicans found them, but now they have the money to do something about it.

And don't give me any of that, "they weren't on the boat" because one of them was and moreover, it takes more than one boat to make up a platoon or batallion or whatever.  If you're in the middle of saving someone and I'm watching you do it, I have just as good a vantage point to recognize what's going on around you while you're in the water focused on a drowning man and that's the bone of contention.  Were they being fired upon?

What's not in contention is Kerry's lies under oath before congress shortly after Vietnam.  His accusations of barbarism and genocide perpetrated by the entire military from the top down.  What's not in contention is his horrible voting record on funding various military requests.  What's not in contention is his lack of almost any voting record in the last year or so while he's run for President.  What's not in contention is the fact that he's got one of the most liberal voting records as a Senator for the last 20+ years.

All this to say, this swift boat junk needs to go away because there are plenty of other reasons not in contention as to why I wouldn't vote for Kerry.  It's a distraction for Kerry's terrible voting record in Congress, which is what people really should be complaining about.

[Rocky]

"What's not in contention is Kerry's lies under oath before congress shortly after Vietnam. His accusations of barbarism and genocide perpetrated by the entire military from the top down. "


Im glad you cleared up that they were lies, cause you saw what was going on there?  Youve talked to enough people to come to that decisions?  Or are you just reading your limited news sites again?   Kerrys testimony to Congress was based on affadavits given by 150 veterans that were there and signed off on Kerrys testimony.  I dont know how many people you need to say bad things were going on, apparently 150 isnt enough for you.  Its tough to call hundreds of veterans liars that say they saw it happening even though theres thousands of innocent ones, a lot were bad, and a lot of people say they saw bad people.  Please stop calling people liars when you know nothing about it.  Listen to the people that were there, not to the people that didnt see anythingm listen to the people that did see something it gets you farther.  Lawyers and courts dont use people who saw nothing, they are irrelevant.

[Rocky]

Scut- the difference between Moore and the Switft Boats is simple.  Moore is at least talking about real issues effecting the country.  Swift boat is only trying to trash the heroism of veterans.

[MrSparky]

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Originally posted by: ScutMonkey


It's a distraction for Kerry's terrible voting record in Congress, which is what people really should be complaining about.

 Kerry has excellent voting record and that is part of the reason why people will be voting for him.
 A true patriot willing to put his life on hte line for his country and a US senator thats been elected in 1984 and has been reelected by the people of  Massachusetts that know him enough to reelect him  in  1990 and "1996, defeating the popular Republican Governor William Weld in the most closely watched Senate race in the country."  

  If there was a  "misinformation forum"  on Sudhian you'd definitly get my vote to become its administrator. That is my one man opinion.  

       
   

 

[ric]

hmmm...this rant sounds familiar

[Mefistofeles]

Regardless of whether or not the accusations are true; Kerry spent too much time and effort refuting the Swift Boat ad.   In fact he's created so much publicity with the issue that the John Kerry has helped the Swift Boat vets beyond their wildest dreams!  His attention towards the matter has helped the Swift Boat vets validate their cause !

Kerry erred mightly.

[ric]

Agreed. Unfit for command is a best seller..thxs to sen. Ferry

[ScutMonkey]

Quote
Originally posted by: Rocky
"What's not in contention is Kerry's lies under oath before congress shortly after Vietnam. His accusations of barbarism and genocide perpetrated by the entire military from the top down. "


Im glad you cleared up that they were lies, cause you saw what was going on there?  Youve talked to enough people to come to that decisions?  Or are you just reading your limited news sites again?   Kerrys testimony to Congress was based on affadavits given by 150 veterans that were there and signed off on Kerrys testimony.  I dont know how many people you need to say bad things were going on, apparently 150 isnt enough for you.  Its tough to call hundreds of veterans liars that say they saw it happening even though theres thousands of innocent ones, a lot were bad, and a lot of people say they saw bad people.  Please stop calling people liars when you know nothing about it.  Listen to the people that were there, not to the people that didnt see anythingm listen to the people that did see something it gets you farther.  Lawyers and courts dont use people who saw nothing, they are irrelevant.

Why don't you do some research the Winter Soldiers Investigation debacle.  Basically, Kerry's testimony before Congress was influenced heavily by this book and it turns out that yes it was largely full of lies, many times by people who were never in the military or if they were, weren't in Vietnam.  On the basis of all this Kerry made these various quotes which are on Congressional record:

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over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

and

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...At times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

This is an exact quote from Kerry himself.  He says bold faced and honestly that the US military had a stance of encouraging crimes against humanity and it went through every level of command.  He went on to say that incidents like Mai Lai were commonplace and routine.  That's a pretty nasty thing to say about all the Vets that served over there and I think you can see why a few might be a tad upset about his testimony.  

This is all on the Congressional record.  Every bit of it testimony straight from Kerry's mouth.  If you look at it from a different perspective you can see why people comparing Bush's possible absences for a month or two is nothing compared to the barbary that Kerry is admitting to being a part of and accusing the US military of encouraging at every level.  He's never apologized once for making those statements and backing the lies perpetrated by the authors of these incidents.

[Rocky]

Well considering several major happenings by soldiers under Bush's term maybe Kerry was right and the military needs to be under stricter order?  Saying that things happen alot doesnt mean everyones guilty, yea it propably pisses everyone off cause they are implying statements.  But sometimes thats what happens.  When people started looking at Enron dont you think the middle ranked guy at Enron got all sorts of crap from media/family/friends even though he was probably innocent?  Should we stay quiet to protect the innocent or to punish the guilty?  The Iraqi prison made all the soldiers in Iraq look bad, theres no doubting that, even though we all know that it was a limited number of people, but the actions were still common place.   We routed out the bad and unfortunately the good suffer whenever that happens.  When I see innocents complaining like that are about Kerry and the Iraqi prison I feel bad for them, but I also think they are just hurting their own cause.  Let the bad guys be revealed so everyone can look better.

[ScutMonkey]

Quote
Originally posted by: Rocky
Well considering several major happenings by soldiers under Bush's term maybe Kerry was right and the military needs to be under stricter order?  Saying that things happen alot doesnt mean everyones guilty, yea it propably pisses everyone off cause they are implying statements.  But sometimes thats what happens.  When people started looking at Enron dont you think the middle ranked guy at Enron got all sorts of crap from media/family/friends even though he was probably innocent?  Should we stay quiet to protect the innocent or to punish the guilty?  The Iraqi prison made all the soldiers in Iraq look bad, theres no doubting that, even though we all know that it was a limited number of people, but the actions were still common place.   We routed out the bad and unfortunately the good suffer whenever that happens.  When I see innocents complaining like that are about Kerry and the Iraqi prison I feel bad for them, but I also think they are just hurting their own cause.  Let the bad guys be revealed so everyone can look better.

Honestly, I'd have been ok with his statement except for the "all levels of command" part where he said the US actively supports and encourages soldiers to brutalize and rape civilians.  War sucks, people snap, and crimes happen.  I don't like it, but I understand that it can and does happen.  I don't like it when people say the US wants it to happen and tells people to do it.