Freedom to Demonstrate or The Quality of Grass?

[VorLonUK]

Guys,

I find this quite funny especially when we have been debating the Gun issue...  Talk about a Paradox..  



BBC Story Here

Story Quote:-

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Political activists opposed to US President George W Bush have been told they will not be allowed to stage a huge rally in New York this weekend.

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A judge at New York's state Supreme Court has ruled that the rally, which was expected to attract a quarter of a million demonstrators, cannot be held in Central Park because of the damage which may be caused to the grass.

 

[VorLonUK]

Freedom to Demonstrate or The Quality of Grass?

[Zut50]

HAHA! The land of the free eh? You poor yanks!

I saw a programme last night about an estate agent in Moscow who sells fancy homes to Russia's ultra-rich elite; quite fascinating. Especially how they showed the under class of people in Russia, where each person has a government alloted space allowance of 3 square metres. But then I got to thinking, we in the west aren't much different. All money flows uphill, and our rights are continually stripped away in favor of the people at the top. The government (not just in Britan and America) doesn't care about the people one bit. If not for the vote Im not sure they wouldn't just lock us all away! Its only those with money and power who are truly catered for; we're all just baggage  

[Connor]

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Originally posted by: VorLonUK
Guys,

I find this quite funny especially when we have been debating the Gun issue...  Talk about a Paradox..  

BBC Story Here

Story Quote:-

Quote
Political activists opposed to US President George W Bush have been told they will not be allowed to stage a huge rally in New York this weekend.

&

Quote
A judge at New York's state Supreme Court has ruled that the rally, which was expected to attract a quarter of a million demonstrators, cannot be held in Central Park because of the damage which may be caused to the grass.

Shame it's not a rally for the legalisation of weed, now that would have been very ironic.

[Timster]

Yes, it may sound ironic, but it is not out of the ordinary.  It's not right, but both sides have been doing it for years.  I'm sure there were anti-Kerry events that were banned of refused public access during the DNC.  This type of filtering goes on whenever the candidates host a town hall meeting or other public event.  When it comes to reporting the news, the press has selective hearing.

[Zut50]

You have to turn this into Bush vs. Kerry dont you?!

ROFL@Connor!! So THATS why we have to keep off the grass!

[ScutMonkey]

Your quote is inaccurate, Vorlon.  The ruling was that they can't use Central Park, not that they can't protest.  The city has already set aside areas for protests.  I don't think it's unfair to make the protestors do their thing in a place that won't cause millions of dollars worth of damage for the taxpayers of NY to foot the bill for.  NYC has already sent aside an area for protestors to use, but they don't want it.  They want to tear up central park and clog it so nobody can use it while they're there.  Central Park is supposed to be a peaceful respite and refuge away from the city and it can't be that if there are a bunch of angry protestors all over it.  I'd be for it regardless of which party they were protesting.

BTW, Timster.  The protestors against the Dems were mostly left wingers angry that the Dems weren't liberal enough.  Conservatives don't generally get out and protest.  It's not their style.  They find different ways to get their point across.  I'm sure there were some Pro Lifers and whatnot out there, but mainly it's radical left wingers.  

[Rocky]

Doug Im going to have to disagree with you.  Its just as much their style as it is the lefties.  One side holds signs the other sends 10,000 forums letters with pictures of dead babies and calls people murderers.  You can decide whats a bigger protest?

[ScutMonkey]

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Originally posted by: Rocky
Doug Im going to have to disagree with you.  Its just as much their style as it is the lefties.  One side holds signs the other sends 10,000 forums letters with pictures of dead babies and calls people murderers.  You can decide whats a bigger protest?

Oh, I never said conservatives don't protest (or at least I didn't mean to say or imply that - sorry if I did).  I just said that with the exception of the more radical fringe elements (Pro-Lifers being some of the worst), conservatives pick a different way to protest than marching on areas with giant placards.  Sites like www.townhall.com and www.nationalreview.com are as much protest sites as conservative pundit sites.

[Timster]

If the protestors had their way, and I've already seen signs of it on the news, they would make their point in a place that is very high profile or do it in such a way to draw as much attention as possible.  If that means stopping traffic or blocking access to a business or civic center, they'll do it.  If possible, they'd shut down the whole city.  When these denials of service occur, it's not the people that caused it that get blamed, it's the mayor and the police that take the hit for not preventing or handling it properly.

[ScutMonkey]

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Originally posted by: Timster
If the protestors had their way, and I've already seen signs of it on the news, they would make their point in a place that is very high profile or do it in such a way to draw as much attention as possible.  If that means stopping traffic or blocking access to a business or civic center, they'll do it.  If possible, they'd shut down the whole city.  When these denials of service occur, it's not the people that caused it that get blamed, it's the mayor and the police that take the hit for not preventing or handling it properly.

In the media, yes, but not in the court of public opinion.  They do themselves no favors by doing those sorts of things.

[Zut50]

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Originally posted by: Timster
If the protestors had their way, and I've already seen signs of it on the news, they would make their point in a place that is very high profile or do it in such a way to draw as much attention as possible.  If that means stopping traffic or blocking access to a business or civic center, they'll do it.  If possible, they'd shut down the whole city.  When these denials of service occur, it's not the people that caused it that get blamed, it's the mayor and the police that take the hit for not preventing or handling it properly.

The point of a protest is to be noticed! You could parade around in your back garden if you wanted but thats hardly going to cause a stir now is it!

[Overkill]

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You could parade around in your back garden if you wanted but thats hardly going to cause a stir now is it!

Depends if you're naked or not really...................

[BallisticGelatin]

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(Pro-Lifers being some of the worst),

Yes, we are a nasty bunch...Wanting to stop babies from being murdered...One day I may be more enlightened.

[Zut50]

You're not so bothered about Iraqi civilians though are you?

Overkill - LOL

[Overkill]

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One day I may be more enlightened

Yeah, you might. I'm not holding my breath though..................

[Wrawrat]

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Originally posted by: Zut50
The point of a protest is to be noticed! You could parade around in your back garden if you wanted but thats hardly going to cause a stir now is it!

You never have been in Central Park, don't you? I did and I am glad they didn't went there. They would have done too much damage (mostly unintentionally but some kiddiots would have taken the liberty to do some intentionally) and pollution. And who pays for this?

There was no need to protest exactly there. After all, they got the desired attention without trashing a beautiful park.

[BallisticGelatin]

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You're not so bothered about Iraqi civilians though are you?

Nope, don't want them murdered either...that's why I support GW.  

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Yeah, you might. I'm not holding my breath though..................  

Awww, go ahead and hold your breath Overkill, you'd turn such a lovely shade of blue!  

[Zut50]

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Originally posted by: BallisticGelatin

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You're not so bothered about Iraqi civilians though are you?

Nope, don't want them murdered either...that's why I support GW.  

You know, Hitler thought he was doing the right thing! And Germany loved him at the time!

[Overkill]

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Overkill, you'd turn such a lovely shade of blue

Nah, I never go blue, just purple............

[ScutMonkey]

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Originally posted by: BallisticGelatin

Yes, we are a nasty bunch...Wanting to stop babies from being murdered...One day I may be more enlightened.

Unless you stand in front of Abortion clincs abusing the people that work there and use the clinics, then you're not what I'm talking about.  If you are, then feel free to be offended, but I think those people are ineffective and make people hate their cause.

[ScutMonkey]

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Originally posted by: Zut50
The point of a protest is to be noticed! You could parade around in your back garden if you wanted but thats hardly going to cause a stir now is it!

Yes, but NY is considerably larger than either your back garden or mine.  Have no fear, they will be noticed.

Question though.  Did anyone notice any Republicans protesting the DNC like Jesse Jackson's protesting this one?  Anything for the limelight, eh Mr. Jackson?  I'm sure he's still smarting from Obama getting to speak at the DNC and not him.

[Overkill]

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Unless you stand in front of Abortion clincs abusing the people that work there and use the clinics,

I know this is off topic, but, Scut, enlighten me on this one? I'm not pro abortion myself, however I can see that if legal abortion is abolished, then as of old, women will just go back to dangerous, life threatening, back street abortions. A situation that helps no-one, but salves the conciences of the Christian fundamentalists.

So, how does attacking people who work in said clinics make the situation any better? It only seems to happen over your side of the pond as well, as violence by pro-lifers against clinic staff is unheard of here? What's the motivation? Why the violence?

[ScutMonkey]

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Originally posted by: Overkill

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Unless you stand in front of Abortion clincs abusing the people that work there and use the clinics,

I know this is off topic, but, Scut, enlighten me on this one? I'm not pro abortion myself, however I can see that if legal abortion is abolished, then as of old, women will just go back to dangerous, life threatening, back street abortions. A situation that helps no-one, but salves the conciences of the Christian fundamentalists.

So, how does attacking people who work in said clinics make the situation any better? It only seems to happen over your side of the pond as well, as violence by pro-lifers against clinic staff is unheard of here? What's the motivation? Why the violence?

Honestly, I don't know, but I can speculate.  Let me start by saying, I'm not the kind of person who'd stand in front of a building and shout out my personal protest.  I find it self defeating and generally obnoxious.  I also find it a tad insulting.  You think I'm so gullible and stupid as to think your catchy little turn of words plastered on some cardboard is going to shape my entire opinion on an important issue?  

Personally, I think there are a couple reasons for the violence.  Some of these people are whack jobs on the fringe.  They have websites with the names and addresses of the doctors and while they don't promote violence against them, they certainly celebrate when it happens.

Others are people feel that infanticide is really happening and they have to do whatever is necessary to stop it.  They go to these protests to shout horrible things at the women and workers who enter the building.  From what I've gathered, they feel that anything that stops the killing of babies short of more murder is justifiable and ok.  There's rarely any violence, but when there is I'm sure there's an element of mob mentality going on.  

Personally, I think abortion is wrong.  I'm not religious, so that's not my problem with it.  My problem is that you're willing to kill in order to clean up the mistakes you've irresponsibily made.  The whole "choice" argument just doesn't wash for me.  The whole "backroom" argument doesn't wash for me either.  At the same time, the decision has been made so just leave it alone.  We've got more important things to be dealing with in this country.  You aren't going to overturn the Supreme Court's ruling.  

I also find the lack of education on the subject for women entering the proceedure appaling.  I've talked to a couple women who've had one and they've been seriously traumatized by it even if they still believe it was the right thing to do.  In some cases the baby screams as it's dying and that's pretty hard to deal with.They are done with a local anesthesia, so the mother is aware of what is going on.    Even those that don't experience screaming can't deny their emotional feelings towards aborting motherhood.  It's even worse if they go on to have more kids later in life.  They don't ever stop wondering about what might have been.  Nobody ever tells them any of that when they go in.  

Anyway, we're way off topic.  If you guys want to continue this issue we might as well open another thread.