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Author Topic: What's wrong with America?  (Read 686 times)
Mefistofeles
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« on: August 19, 2004, 03:13:52 AM »

I read somewhere that Americans work harder than any other people in the industrialized world and enjoy less vacation time than their European and possibly even ther Japanese counterparts.   I also know that as a country we Americans depend on foreign savings to finance our lifestyles and trade deficits.  That's right Americans work harder yet still depend heavily upon foreign capital.

As an American I know that I have access to goods at prices that would astound Europeans.  I can buy thousands of dollars worth of merchandise on credit or in payments.  

Yet I also know that I don't get fresh bread like the Germans or French.   I also know that the American people are slaves to their new homes or massive SUVs struggling to make payments.

Even though I as an American have an unprecedented ability to purchase goods I can't help but that the country is no better off because of it.    

When I was in Germany I remember there was a sense of belonging in the Gymansium.  Everyone could hang out with everyone else.  Someone once said that the European dream isn't about unlimited private freedom or buying massive homes or SUVs its about belonging.   If this true isn't belonging community worth something more than our homes packed full of expensive big screen tv's and our massive SUVs?



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Mefistofeles
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« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2004, 03:13:52 AM »

What's wrong with America?
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VorLonUK
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« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2004, 07:14:23 AM »

Cost of living in the US and Japan is so low..

Our interest rates have kept on going up and are now getting towards the 5% mark (thats the bank of England Rate). You can be assured that Mortgage Rates are at least 1% higher than that. Everytime that rate goes up, so does my mortgage and I believe it's gone up 3 times!! already this year.

Cars, Computer hardware and Software and god knows what else are a Fraction of the cost in the US than say the UK. Music Cd's and Films are cheaper in the US. Quality clothing is cheaper in the US etc etc..

The bottom line is Greed (probably) as most of us want more.. and with the ridiculous level of credit available we can just about have anything. It's paying it back that's the difficult thing.

Compared to second world or even third world countries, we are really spoilt. Looking at the Sudanese who are in dire straits at present, makes me feel just how lucky I am, even so much so (and we aint rich by a long shot) we've sent money to the disaster appeal.
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Mefistofeles
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« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2004, 02:33:29 PM »

I have bad news for you VorlonUK I think rates will go even higher.   Commodities are absolutely insane; in fact we're running out of concrete here in the states.  Steel, copper prices are up 70% YTD.    Its madhouse.

It has to do with the China US Dynamic.  Our dollars are overstimulated their economy (they have the 2nd largest dollar reserves in Asia) and they have to recycle them back here into the US.    

Personally I think the prime rate in the US at 1.5% is much too low ;especially in light of our huge budget deficits and runaway (that's funny I was just at a Corrs concert and keep on think of Andrea Corr singing "Runaway")  current account deficit.

China and India still have applied the brakes but their economies are still growing very rapidly.  

What I'm trying to stay is this: we are in the middle of "runaway" global inflation in the commodities sector and to a lesser degree the real estate sector in the US and UK.  Its only logical that rates go up even further.

Although I know its causing quite a bit of pain in the UK I applaued BoE stance; they want to pop the real estate bubble in your country.  However despite their intention of limiting the rate hikes I think they no choice but to raise rates further as the FED and ECB begin their tightening.

Can you move to a fixed rate loan?

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ScutMonkey
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« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2004, 02:48:28 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by: Mefistofeles
I read somewhere that Americans work harder than any other people in the industrialized world and enjoy less vacation time than their European and possibly even ther Japanese counterparts.   I also know that as a country we Americans depend on foreign savings to finance our lifestyles and trade deficits.  That's right Americans work harder yet still depend heavily upon foreign capital.

As an American I know that I have access to goods at prices that would astound Europeans.  I can buy thousands of dollars worth of merchandise on credit or in payments.  

Yet I also know that I don't get fresh bread like the Germans or French.   I also know that the American people are slaves to their new homes or massive SUVs struggling to make payments.

Even though I as an American have an unprecedented ability to purchase goods I can't help but that the country is no better off because of it.    

When I was in Germany I remember there was a sense of belonging in the Gymansium.  Everyone could hang out with everyone else.  Someone once said that the European dream isn't about unlimited private freedom or buying massive homes or SUVs its about belonging.   If this true isn't belonging community worth something more than our homes packed full of expensive big screen tv's and our massive SUVs?


It's a question of priorities and desires.  I have observed much the same thing in my travels to Europe and I'm really conflicted about it sometimes.  It's really nice to be in a city where everyone goes down to the local pub after work and have a few before heading home.  They can afford it because they don't generally own cars and all the expensive headaches that belong with it.

On the other hand, I'm a hermit as it is and I don't like going out much.  I enjoyed it while I traveled because I was traveling and it was all new and different, but getting me to do it while in back home is not an easy task.  It's just not fun.  

Anyway, part of the American work ethic is our heritage.  The ole "Protestant Work Ethic" kicking in.  We work our tails off to acquire things and we usually use them to define ourselves by our jobs, our accomplishments at work, and the luxury items we own.  It's hard to escape if you're not paying attention.  I'd like to think I'm a tad different than most Americans in that I save more, but I do work alot of hours.  At least 50 hours a week and often more.  I put 10% of my money into my 401k and I also put money into stocks and other investments.  I have a small credit card for emergencies and otherwise I live right around my means.  Why?  I want to retire early and never work again.  I don't think it's very realistic, but I'm going to give it a shot.  I want to put the hours in while I'm young and can handle it so I don't end up like one of the many Wal-Mart greeters I worked with while I put myself through college.  I don't want to be 70 and making ends meet, but it's entirely possible if I don't plan now.

Most people only see what's immediately in front of them and don't look into the future.  I don't think we're taught the dangers and power of "compound interest."  We're certainly not taught patience (put it off until you can afford it...invest instead of purchase).  We're also provided so much credit because most of the time Americans are willing to put in the extra hours and hard work to pay it off.  Remember, if the system didn't make money, the wouldn't be offering and people "go where the money is."  You don't have to be American to know that, which is why you see so much foreign investment.

Personally, I don't think one system is better than the other.  I just prefer to live in this one.  I would be frustrated to no end to live in most European countries as my various political discussions would probably support.  Does that mean our system is somehow "better?"  Well, for me yes but for Vorlon or Zut, no.  Nothing wrong with that, in my eyes.  I don't live there and they don't live here.  At least there is a choice in the world and that's one of the things I'd like to preserve and even improve about the US while other countries fall deeper and deeper into what I see as a quagmire of social services and goverment oversight.    I would like the US to be an alternative to the socialist systems in Europe, but for the last 100 years we've been creeping closer and closer to them and abandoning alot of what made the US so unique originally.  I don't want to be France, Germany, Sweden, or England.  If you want what they have, go there.  I would.  I've visited most of them and they're very nice.  Because we're free, there's nothing keeping any of us here.  They just don't have anything to offer me when I look at what I want out of life.

Isn't having a choice great?
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Mefistofeles
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« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2004, 03:19:10 PM »

Quote

I put 10% of my money into my 401k and I also put money into stocks and other investments.


Consider yourself a Patriot Scut people like you are doing this a county a real service by not only living at their means but saving and investing in the economy.   I think the true Protestant work ethic of working hard to save and build a future died long ago here.  People live for the here in now in the US; no payments for 6 months 0% interest!

If we saved what we make and didn't live beyond our means I can't imagine how much more powerful and prosperous the US would be.  We would truly be the example or light unto the world.  

However I think most Americans are getting the short of the stick; more working hours to buy things that will depreciate in value.  Or buying more real estate than they can afford by going into debt.  It truly is a sad state of affairs.   Unfortunately net increases in consumer debt have kept this economy going well past its natural point of correction.   Someday all those debts have to be paid off; God help us when that day arrives.    

Quote

while other countries fall deeper and deeper into what I see as a quagmire of social services and goverment oversight.


Unfortunately the projections for Social Security and Medicare show that United States has not and will not escape the oncoming quagmire.

Its good to know that there are thoughtful people here on this board that really care and think about the futre.

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ScutMonkey
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« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2004, 07:26:19 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by: Mefistofeles


Consider yourself a Patriot Scut people like you are doing this a county a real service by not only living at their means but saving and investing in the economy.   I think the true Protestant work ethic of working hard to save and build a future died long ago here.  People live for the here in now in the US; no payments for 6 months 0% interest!

If we saved what we make and didn't live beyond our means I can't imagine how much more powerful and prosperous the US would be.  We would truly be the example or light unto the world.  

However I think most Americans are getting the short of the stick; more working hours to buy things that will depreciate in value.  Or buying more real estate than they can afford by going into debt.  It truly is a sad state of affairs.   Unfortunately net increases in consumer debt have kept this economy going well past its natural point of correction.   Someday all those debts have to be paid off; God help us when that day arrives.    


Well part of the problem is the way taxation is setup to encourage this sort of behavior.  Instead of the Feds taxing luxury items or needless purchases, they instead tax investments because it "goes after the rich" which is a complete misnomer.  Investments should NEVER be taxed over the long term.  I don't care how much money someone makes off them.  Investments are the way companies are built and it's absolutely nuts that we tax investors.  It's just as nuts that we tax any form of savings whatsoever.  But the feds don't tax buying that extra TV or computer or VCR or DVD player or any number of items that we don't actually "need."  Our system of taxation is moronic and encourages short sighted thinking.

Quote

Unfortunately the projections for Social Security and Medicare show that United States has not and will not escape the oncoming quagmire.

Its good to know that there are thoughtful people here on this board that really care and think about the futre.


I saw a truly frightening stat about Social Security the other day.  When enacted by FDR, there were 42 workers for every qualifier and the average life expectacy of an American was 67.  Now the average age is almost 80 and there are only 3 people working for each Social Security beneficiary and it's only getting worse as Americans live longer.  We seriously need to either up the age you can start drawing, or we need to privatize the system and allow people to invest for themselves.  As bad as the projections are for the US, they're even worse for Europe because their elderly are going to far outstrip their younger workers here shortly.  I can't even imagine how bad that's going to be.
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BallisticGelatin
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« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2004, 07:45:16 PM »

Privatizing at least part of Social Security in addition to GW's national sales tax would porbably go a long way to solving the problem.  Of course, IMO I don't think anyone should count on SocSec providing all the funds needed at retirement.

Scut, have you heard about the tax plan that GW may propose if he is reelected?  It sounds pretty sweet from what I have heard.  It gets rid of the income tax and replaces it with a national sales tax...According to one of the brainiacs that thought it up, it would be less of a tax burden on Americans and at the same time increase tax revenues....

Oh, and it would make foreign countries pay part of our tax burden....
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VorLonUK
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« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2004, 08:56:19 PM »

Quote

Can you move to a fixed rate loan?


Good Point MeFist

We did in fact last month re-mortgage and we went over to a fixed rate type for the next five years

With the latest 0.25% rise and the better rate we managed to secure, we are now £100 ($180) better off a month, which is great. It was worrying seeing the interest rate rise and knowing that the mortgage would go up. I see the interest on the mortgage as "Dead" Money so it's great to have it a bit more under control now..

I hear what you are saying about China, I too have found it interesting that China has a big appetite for steel right now and that coupled with our higher interest rates is making our Steel (UK) uncompetitive as the Pound £ is too strong. (Great for buying US software though )

Real Estate is another big problem as to a degree we are getting more like Japan as we are running out of space. Looking at a local housing developement the developer has opted for a "High Density" layout which there is a range specified by the government. Now this developement is fairly large but it has 400+ dwellings going up on it (it's an old factory site) and the "density" according to the plans is average to high. So on that score I can't imagine how many dwellings they could cram on a piece of land under the "Max High Density" level!

At least the US has plenty of space.

We have family in the US (well my other half has) and we have looked at what we could afford in the way of housing in a few different states but mainly in Texas. We are both really impressed in just how nice (and large) the majority of the properties are.
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UglyShoes
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« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2004, 01:11:47 AM »

Cheap goods and the general acts of most americans hurt things.  If you think things are better cause you can get stuff cheap you are a fool, buying such things means your buying foriegn goods, thus  increasing our trade deficit. Furthermore you are putting people out of jobs, since things aren't made here.  Companies end up trying to do more with less workers, so people work harder.  This is why the ideas that the Bush white house pumps (that being that outsourcing is good since it makes stuff cheap) is so freaking stupid.  Sure stuff is cheaper, but does a person care if they have no job.

I think why americans work the way they do is many thing, much of which was explained in part by what people said  above.  I think the US simply built it'self on efficency (as hard as that is to belive at times) so trying to have one person do more is just natural. Also at one time long ago, we were a small country, not many people, and just getting started. Everyone had to work hard to get this country off the ground.

Vorlornuk,  well, things varry where you go.  I came from rural PA where i could buy a nice starter house, and a decent chunk of land for 80 grand.  Now i'm in San Jose CA, ugh just a few years rent would buy a house back home. A house similar to what i could get in PA cost into the millions. This sucks.

Far as how people are taxed,  well things that are optional, or are more oriented to people with money to blow should be what we tax the most, no question about it.  No tax on food and clothes, but lots of tax on luxury cars, booze, smokes, sweaters for poodles....  .  Also there isn't anything wrong with taxes on investments.  In the end people don't invest in stuff to help a company grow or for the good of man, they do it to make more money, plan and simple.  Trickle down economics just doesn't work, trickle up does.  We should focus on making sure people at the bottom have money, they are the one most likely to pump it right back into the economy buying stuff they need.  Give a rich person more money, they just shove it in the bank, thats how they got rich after all, by not spending it all.  Sure they invest some, but it's not like taxes stop them from investing.

Far as privatizing Social Security that would be horrible.  Way to risky,  think if in 1999 the social security system had been put into the stock market.  It would have been obliterated a few years later.  You can't put social security at risk like that. It has a hard enough time surviving in a stable way where all it worries about is people just taking the money from it.  How are they ever suppose to maintain it when a bad day on the market could wipe it out.

I would frankly like to see the gov get it'self in the money making business. Have more aspects that draw money in through the sale of stuff or services. Or simple don't have the goverment doing things like paying companies to do stuff for them.  Things like paying companies to design and make weapons for the military, and that company making a chunk of profit from things is dumb. The gov. should have the engineers and so forth, but it be a non profit effort.  There should be no moneymaking in social, infustructural, and govermental things.  Same goes for the drug industry, it should be non-profit.  The size of our gov or things is covers do not make it bad, it's the way things are done.  Think about how much of your taxes is lost off to government contractors CEO's and investors and such pockets.  That and simply paying off the damn debt so 1/4 of our tax dollar isn't being blown on interest.

Americans need to think about there actions more,  buy more american things, support things that keap people employeed, not be wasteful (we are a very much a buy cheap crap, throw it away, and buy more cheap crap society). This doesn't mean ignore the world, some things just make sense to do, like buying our oil cheap from overseas instead of wasting ours and destroying our land.

in the end lots of things just come down to culture and things that will never change over night, things like the questions above can take decades of maybe centuries to really change.  I think as the cultures of the world become more of one culture things will unify, but in what way, who knows, but i would say we will all wear hats.
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fall-apart
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« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2004, 01:30:45 AM »

Quote

We're certainly not taught patience (put it off until you can afford it...invest instead of purchase).


Interestingly, my wife's grandparents lived by this rule (don't buy anything until you can afford it), and on his deathbed, her grandfather thought that they may have done things backwards, because they didn't get nearly as much enjoyment as they could have if they'd purchased on credit.
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UglyShoes
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« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2004, 02:17:34 AM »

fall apart,  they would have had to pay for it some how.  Living super fun for a few years and then struggling to pay for it the rest of your life is not the way to go.  Life is best when paid for.  Yeah, you could put it on credit, but do you always want to have paying for it on your mind.  Financial security is a great enjoyment.

A house is the only thing you really should ever need a loan for, well and college but thats a bit of a differant story, since if your going to have kids you should plan for there college from the start thus have it paid for when they get there, but the child doesn't have control over that.  Cars are accceptable to take a loan out, but within limits.  No one needs a brand new car, or the most option filled thing,  if your like a lot of americans who value their money you buy cars that come off leases for cheap, and if your good with your money you can normaly write a check out and buy it flat out.  The time when things change a bit is when you have the money and just want to spread things out for a bit and a minor cost to take a smaller one time hit.  Also sometimes you find yourself in one heck of a pinch and need the money. But often such situations are do to bad planning for time before, like always spending all ones pay check.

I really don't have much sympathy for those who get themselves in debt, since there is no reason you should get in debt. Rare cases that it's not ones fault, but rare. One of the biggies is college debt if you had to take out student loans, but really thats not debt since the degree you spent the moeny one is to make more money and the system is designed so you can pay it off just fine. It's more often that people take massive loans to go to harvard for their undergrade and grad for 10 years to get degrees in underwater basket weaving and then have trouble paying it off.  Where people get in trouble with college debt is going to crazy pricey schools for no good reason and picking careers that they would never be able to support themselves in regardless of trying to pay back student loans.
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JungleJoe
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« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2004, 06:16:57 AM »

"Yet I also know that I don't get fresh bread like the Germans or French. I also know that the American people are slaves to their new homes or massive SUVs struggling to make payments. "

Eh? I go down to my local supermarket's bakery and I get FRESH baked (like 5 minutes old) french/sour doh/etc bread almost every day. What u talkin but willis?

BTW this bread is GREAT, so dont get into quality. But If i really wanted to get picky about it I could go to my local independant run bakery.
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Mefistofeles
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« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2004, 06:24:12 AM »

Quote

would frankly like to see the gov get it'self in the money making business.


The government already is in the money making business in two key ways: The Federal Reserve.  There are also the government sponsored agencies: Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

The Federal Reserve initiated what many bears like myself was a very reckless policy at the end of the internet bubble of excessive liquidity in the form of very low interest rates.  I read somewhere that historically interest rates have been something around 4 something percent and the Fed's current Fed funds rate isn't too far off from the historical rate.    However I believe that our current high deficits create a situation where rates should be higher than 4% because massive deficit government spending tends to "crowd out" private investment.

Another problem we have now versus other periods in history is the collapse of the gold standard and the Bretton Woods agreement in 73.    The Gold standard could create terrible economic booms and busts based on the movement of a country's gold supplies.  If a country became flush with gold there was massive growth in the money supply; and flush times would follow.   However if I'm not mistaken this would result in a huge appreciation of the country's currency, resulting in a export disadvantage.

If a country became loss competitive vis a vis trade  deficits develop bye, bye gold and interest rates would increase and the country's entire economy would come to a grinding halt.

Although this system had certain very obvious limitations it had one advantage over our current global system: the system was self adjusting.

With the Americans triumphant at the end of the Second World War.   A monetary agreement was signed at Bretton Woods that would last until 1973.  This agreement limited the price of gold to $40 per ounce and fixed the other national currencies to the dollar.  In affect what this meant was that the dollar would become the world's defacto currency.   However Bretton Woods was also in effect a gold standard because the value of gold was held constant relative to the dollar.

Everything was going fine in the begining.  The US expanded trade with its allies and America's allies used American dollars to help rebuild their economies.  In fact in the begining the lack of US dollars in other countries was a problem because other countries needed US dollars in order to fund their own growth.

As we all know Germany and Japan built massive industries after WWII and expanded their trade with the US.

However in 1960's the US economy was overheating and America began to import larger and larger quantities of imports and in the process export dollars.  We buy imports and give foreigners US dollars.   As a result the world became inundated with US Dollars.

The French realized this and began trading gold for Dollars  at one ounce of gold for $40.  They believed that gold was worth more than $40 an ounce and soon brought the entire system to a standstill.  In 1973 Nixon suspended convertability of the US dollar to gold and ended Bretton Woods by having the various national currencies "float" against one another.

However before all was said and done the US struck a major deal with the Saudis and persuaded OPEC to price oil in US Dollars.  By pricing oil in US dollars OPEC forced countries to accumulate dollar reserves if they wanted to buy oil and created demand for the dollar.  Most commodities are also priced in dollars, making the dollar an important currency for commerce and trade.

Since the breakup of Bretton Woods the "Asian Tigers" have been able to industrialize at an astounding rate as have China and India.  The reason is this: their is no control or limit on the number of dollars that the US can export.  If countries like Japan and China sell their dollars they increase the strength of their own currencies; hurting exports.   If these countries allow investors to deposit dollars for their own currencies then they risk inflation because they have to generate more local currency.  So Asian central banks "sterilize"
dollar reserves by selling bonds and attempt to take them out of their economy.  However the bonds must be paid back with interest.  

Or if they hold dollar reserves Asian Central banks they do so not as cash but as treasury bills or gse securities from Fannie Mae Freddie Mac.  

By Treasury Bills foreign central banks help to keep the interest rate in the United States low.  In addition by purchasing GSE securities they help overheat the housing market because the GSE's use this money to buy even more mortgages and help keep housing hot.   Of course when the housing market is hot people refi buy more stuff (especially imports and commodities) and help widen the trade deficit.  

These higher trade deficits result in Asian central banks holding even more dollars and buying ever larger quantities of GSE and Treasury securities.   In many respects this cycle is self sustaining.

What we have right now is a system of runaway money creation with very few checks and balances.  This effects of this system can be seen in two areas in particular:

1. Real Estate
2.  Commodities

Real Estate the world over has undergone a tremendous boom as capital has floods into various real estate markets.  In Southern California the mean home price is $400,000 .    

Commodities.  Have enjoyed absolutely explosive price growth. Copper is up 70% year to date and oil is also $18+ higher per barrel than over a year ago.

Of course the one achilles heel to the system is borrowing.  In the UK and US consumer borrowing has reached mind boggling levels.  I believe that consumer debt in the UK has exceeded the trillion pound mark and in the US bank.

According to the Federal Reserve US Consumer debt (not counting mortgages) has gone from
1.52 trillion in 1999 to 2.038 trillion today.

US Consumer Debt

Rapid Expansion of Consumer debt
Note that this section also has the total mortgage debt.

So what I'm trying to say is this:  our prosperity in these last few years has been based upon the consumer acquiring ever larger amounts of debt.   What is the natural "carrying limit" of the consumers debt?  I don't think its a matter of if this bubble will explode its simply a matter of when.

Of course when this bubble explodes will it have deflationary or inflationary consequences?   If the consequences are deflation then sell your house now!  However if the consequences are inflation then what asset class holds its value best during inflationary periods with high interest rates.

Real estate's one problem is that relies extensively on capital markets.  If interest rates go too high the cost of buying even the cheapest home becomes prohibative.  

Unfortunately no one knows exactly how this game will come to an end.  What will bring the global money/real estate/ commodities machine to halt?   Personally I think its going to be energy.   When oil reaches $100 a barrel then its very difficult to see how the economy will continue growing and prospering.  

Of course this brings us to our next question what assets will hold their value when all is said and done?
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fall-apart
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« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2004, 01:11:03 PM »

Quote

fall apart, they would have had to pay for it some how. Living super fun for a few years and then struggling to pay for it the rest of your life is not the way to go


They weren't saying "go buy stuff you would never buy anyways".  More along the lines of - if you're going to buy something, put it on credit and pay it off so you can enjoy it longer.
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