WTH???

[Babar]

WTH???

[Babar]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/...7/hezbollah/index.html

BEIRUT, Lebanon (CNN) -- Hezbollah sent an unmanned reconnaissance plane over Israeli airspace Sunday, the Lebanon-based group and the Israeli military said.

"This morning an Iranian UAV [unmanned air vehicle] operated by the Hezbollah terror organization infiltrated into Israel over the western Galilee," the Israel Defense Forces said in a statement.

"This incident is a part of the terrorist activity carried out by the Hezbollah terrorist organization with the support of Iran and Syria and under the auspices of Lebanon, with the aim of targeting Israeli citizens."

The United States also considers Hezbollah a terrorist organization. The group has claimed responsibility for numerous terrorist attacks against civilians.

Hezbollah says its primary aim is to drive all Israeli forces out of Lebanon -- including the prevention of Israeli aerial maneuvers over Lebanon.



Sooooooo, it's ok for Israel to perform aerial maneuvers over Lebanon, but it isn't ok for Hezbollah to fly an UAV over Israel??? I'd love to see how the Israelis come to this conclusion....

[Timster]

Recognized authority has its priviledges.

[VorLonUK]

Babar,

The double standards in that part of the world are way out of control

[Lord Raiden]

I agree.  But look at it from a military standpoint.  Would you want your enemy flying spycraft over your location in preparation for an attack?  I think not.  Same thing applies here.  It's military vs mililitary, in this case Israel vs terrorists.  It's all one big war.  Spying is part of the game.  You need to spy on your enemy to gather information while preventing them from doing the same.  It's war.  Things like this happen all the time.  It's like the old statement that says, "All is fair in love and war." and that's bluntly true too.  As much as you may hate it, it's very legal in war.

[Timster]

New policy:  Do unto others and retaliate on those that do unto you.

[iamjack]

quote:
Originally posted by: Lord Raiden
Things like this happen all the time.  It's like the old statement that says, "All is fair in love and war." and that's bluntly true too.  As much as you may hate it, it's very legal in war.

"Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges", Raiden.

[BallisticGelatin]

quote:
Sooooooo, it's ok for Israel to perform aerial maneuvers over Lebanon, but it isn't ok for Hezbollah to fly an UAV over Israel??? I'd love to see how the Israelis come to this conclusion...

Hezbollah, being a terrorist organization, shouldn't even be allowed to exist....let alone play with remote piloted aircraft.

[ScutMonkey]

quote:
Originally posted by: BallisticGelatin

quote:
Sooooooo, it's ok for Israel to perform aerial maneuvers over Lebanon, but it isn't ok for Hezbollah to fly an UAV over Israel??? I'd love to see how the Israelis come to this conclusion...

Hezbollah, being a terrorist organization, shouldn't even be allowed to exist....let alone play with remote piloted aircraft.

Moreover, they're a puppet organization run by Iran.  It is IRAN flying over Israel, not Lebanon.  What happens when/if Israel starts flying over Iran?  How's that going to sit?

[mcBuddha]

Whoa! Whoa! Whao!  Wait a moment.  Israel is a nationally recognized State.  Hezbollah?  The Northern Border belongs to Lebanon.  If you want equivalencies then a UAV sent by the Lebanese Army would be the equivalent. But the only reason the Iranian supported terrorist organization Hezbollah would send such a device over Northern Israel would be to set targets, mostly civilian for their Katusha rockets, and mortars.  
Look both sides do wrong things, but lets compare like entities.  
Oh man, Barbar! You work in the House of Representatives?  You influence National Policy?!!!  
Get a clue:  Hezbollah - Terrorist organization, proxy army for Iran and Syria outside their national borders. /  Israel - Nation - democracy.  Yeah I may be stating the obvious, but I don't get the  reasoning behind your statement.   Syria has no peace agreement with Israel, and thus the dispute over the Shebaa farm area.  see:
Shebaa farms

=====
Barbar I apologize for the ad-hominem attack above.  I think your position is not well thought out, but no reason for me to get sarcastic.

[Babar]

I agree with what ReflexCroft just said. However, don't take that to mean that I don't think that Arafat is an idiot for not taking Barak's offer of a sovereign Palestinian state a few years back. Sometimes wanting the world will get you nothing (if I can paraphrase and twist a good line from Scarface).

But both sides need to stop being children.

[ric]

Normal children play with toys.

This jihad kid is already playing with grenades...lol

[mcBuddha]

It is a democracy in that its citizens determine its government.  You cannot gloss over that the purpose of the existence of Israel is to provide the Jewish people with a safe and self governing entity.  
Are you proposing that Israel cease to exist?  Because that is a far wider point than was being made here, which is whether an entity recognized by the international community as a nation has a right to defend its borders.  

My second point still stands though.  There are two unequal entities being compared here, and it is not an issue of view.  The Army of Israel acts as an agent of a internationally recognized government.  Who do the Hezbollah act on behalf of?  Be very careful how you answer since the PA at least publicly denounces acts of terror.    When and if there is a peace agreement and Hezbollah decides to continue their jihad who will be responsible for their actions?  

[mcBuddha]

Where are you getting your information from?  I can only find the statistics that state they make up 10% to 20% of the citizenship population including: http://www.arabhra.org/article26/general.htm[/L]. So that would make the 2 representatives, well representative.  

>>Israel already exists, so your second point is irrelevant. Nothing will change that now.
My second point is that granting suffrage to a population who by and large want Israel to cease to exist would indeed cause it to cease to exist.  

Your moral relativism regarding Hezbollah and by extension other terrorist organizations is indeed a defense of them and their tactics.  This is the same double speak that has stymied any meaningful conversation between the two sides, and indeed any two sides in which one side is committing a proxy war thru an terrorist organization.   Since in your opinion these forces are involved in a 'war' I repeat what is the condition under which they will cease their aggression.  What if it is the total obliteration of the state of Israel, which is the stated goal of a good number of these groups?  
My point here is that as long as you grant equal status to any group that decides to carry on an extra-national struggle to the nation against they struggle - you are opening the door to all kinds of chaos.  How for instance do you feel about Northern Ireland?, how about Columbia, Peru, Sudan?  I really am interested to hear where you draw the line.

We began this conversation with a statement that there was a double standard concerning the use of UAV by Israel vs. the Hezbollah.   I'm still waiting for you to show me how they are equivalent.

[Reflex]

Israeli Knesset

120 members according to Wikipedia.  2 Arabs last I heard.  The official Israeli census bereau puts the Arab population of Israel(that would be citizens, not Palastenians) at 19% as of 2001.  I am certain that I have read otherwise as the absorbtion of 'lost tribes' has been a major issue with Israel with the compelling reason to do so being to keep the 51% majority needed to keep the nation a 'Jewish state'.  However I am not able to find those articles, Google just returns a TON of results.  I'll look more later.

All that aside, 2 Arabs do not adequately represent even 19% of the population.  With 120 members you would need 23 Arabs to have accurate representation.

I refuse to get drawn into a specific debate about Hezbollah.  I am not in agreement with thier tactics, their funding is suspect, and I don't think they would stop at anything short of pushing the Jews into the sea.   So trying to pigeonhole me as a 'Hezbollah supporter' simply because I feel Israel is a poor democracy that oppresses its minorities is simply not going to happen.

The double standard is that there is such shock and awe that Hezbollah would dare to do the same thing Israel does to them.  Its a war, and if they have the tools they will use them.

[VorLonUK]

quote:
Originally posted by: Reflex-Croft
First off, Israel is NOT a democracy.  They have an elections system designed to deliberatly suppress 49% of the legal citizens of the country.  There are only 2 Arabs in the Knesset representing 49% of the population.  This is not democratic in the slightest.

Secondly, while I do not condone Hezbollah's tactics, as has been pointed out elsewhere: All is fair in war.  They do not view themselves as terrorists, they view themselves as liberators.  Much as the colonials did during our revolution.  Once again, I do not like nor agree with them or their tactics, but one person's 'terrorists' are another person's 'revolution'.  Its all in the perspective you come from.

I agree R-C,

How one side can be called terrorists and the other not is just plain ridiculous. They are both at war, however one side has all the High Tech weaponary whilst the other does not. But because one side has to use more "visually barbaric" means to engage the enemy, they are deemed terrorists. Crazy!

[fall-apart]

quote:
hey are both at war, however one side has all the High Tech weaponary whilst the other does not. But because one side has to use more "visually barbaric" means to engage the enemy, they are deemed terrorists.

Again and aagin you refuse to see that it's not the weaponry but the tactics that determine whether they are terrorist.  If they were attacking solely military installations, then I could see making the argument that they are at war, but as long as they continue to target civilians, they are terrorists.  The IDF goes out of its way to avoid civilian casualties.  Can you imagine the war they'd prosecute on the Palestinians if they had the same regard for Palestinian lives as the Palestinians have for Israeli life?

[VorLonUK]

quote:
Originally posted by: fall-apart

quote:
hey are both at war, however one side has all the High Tech weaponary whilst the other does not. But because one side has to use more "visually barbaric" means to engage the enemy, they are deemed terrorists.

Again and aagin you refuse to see that it's not the weaponry but the tactics that determine whether they are terrorist.  If they were attacking solely military installations, then I could see making the argument that they are at war, but as long as they continue to target civilians, they are terrorists.  The IDF goes out of its way to avoid civilian casualties.  Can you imagine the war they'd prosecute on the Palestinians if they had the same regard for Palestinian lives as the Palestinians have for Israeli life?

There you go again FA, refusing to see how it actually is! and forgetting the terrorist type activity on Both Sides. You say you are a teacher?, but you have failed (by your indication here) to have digested ALL the facts, that are readily documented. How can you teach "open mindedly" when you refuse to see what's going on?. I call that being "biased" and IF that is passed on, then I can see sadly how indoctrination works. But of course in relation to you FA and how you teach, I am just guessing, perhaps you can put me right?

[Arrow]

quote:
Originally posted by: Reflex-Croft
Israeli Knesset
All that aside, 2 Arabs do not adequately represent even 19% of the population.  With 120 members you would need 23 Arabs to have accurate representation.

From the CIA World Fact Book:

quote:
Jewish 80.1% (Europe/America-born 32.1%, Israel-born 20.8%, Africa-born 14.6%, Asia-born 12.6%), non-Jewish 19.9% (mostly Arab) (1996 est.)

and

quote:
election results: percent of vote by party - Likud Party 29.4%, Labor 14.5%, Shinui 12.3%, Shas 8.2%, National Union 5.5%, Meretz 5.2%, United Torah Judaism 4.3%, National Religious Party 4.2%, Democratic Front for Peace and Equality 3.0%, One Nation 2.8%, National Democratic Assembly 2.3%, Yisra'el Ba'Aliya (YBA) 2.2%, United Arab List 2.1%, Green Leaf Party 1.2%, Herut 1.2%, other 1.6%; seats by party - Likud 38, Labor 19, Shinui 15, Shas 11, National Union 7, Meretz 6, National Religious Party 6, United Torah Judaism 5, Democratic Front for Peace and Equality 3, One Nation 3, National Democratic Assembly 3, YBA 2, United Arab List 2

Now, looking at these numbers, and how the Israeli government is organized as a larger whole, it looks like they are electing leader a district basis. If this is true (and I see no reason why it isn't), then it means an area (or areas) has enough arab population to elect 2 arabs to the Knesset; the remainder of the country apparently does not have enough of an arab population to elect arab represents, making them a minority in those areas. Now, if democratic government is elected by the majority, as it is here in the states, please explain to me why one ethic group that is more than likely spread throughout the country should gain a dispropotionate representation, and dominate the voice and policies of districts that are home to mostly non-arabs?

[fall-apart]

quote:
Originally posted by: VorLonUK

quote:
Originally posted by: fall-apart

quote:
hey are both at war, however one side has all the High Tech weaponary whilst the other does not. But because one side has to use more "visually barbaric" means to engage the enemy, they are deemed terrorists.

Again and aagin you refuse to see that it's not the weaponry but the tactics that determine whether they are terrorist.  If they were attacking solely military installations, then I could see making the argument that they are at war, but as long as they continue to target civilians, they are terrorists.  The IDF goes out of its way to avoid civilian casualties.  Can you imagine the war they'd prosecute on the Palestinians if they had the same regard for Palestinian lives as the Palestinians have for Israeli life?

There you go again FA, refusing to see how it actually is! and forgetting the terrorist type activity on Both Sides. You say you are a teacher?, but you have failed (by your indication here) to have digested ALL the facts, that are readily documented. How can you teach "open mindedly" when you refuse to see what's going on?. I call that being "biased" and IF that is passed on, then I can see sadly how indoctrination works. But of course in relation to you FA and how you teach, I am just guessing, perhaps you can put me right?

Which terrorist activity are you referring to?

[ScutMonkey]

quote:
Originally posted by: VorLonUK

There you go again FA, refusing to see how it actually is! and forgetting the terrorist type activity on Both Sides. You say you are a teacher?, but you have failed (by your indication here) to have digested ALL the facts, that are readily documented. How can you teach "open mindedly" when you refuse to see what's going on?. I call that being "biased" and IF that is passed on, then I can see sadly how indoctrination works. But of course in relation to you FA and how you teach, I am just guessing, perhaps you can put me right?

How can you claim to BE openminded when the only position which could possibly have ANY merit in your eyes is always your own.  It's more than just putting your own opinion out there, but you continually insult any opinion which deviates from your own and even worse, you insult the member who holds that opinion.

You do realize the opinions of people like me would change if Palestinians ONLY targetted troops with their bombs.  If you don't, then YOU are the one that doesn't get it.  It is the Israeli troops which keep Palestinians from what they want.  Not little girls and boys eating at a restaurant on a sunny day.

[VorLonUK]

Scut,

You amaze me time after time, that in typical right wing yankee one sided jargon, that you utter "the way" something is said rather than it's content. Typical diversionary post

I have repeatedly put forward my position on the Israeli/Palestinian issue, citing instances of terror from both sides. I have also indicated UNLIKE yourself that both sides are to blame, but yet in your typical manner, you descend with an attack on myself, stating that I think my position is right above anyone elses. Oh the friggin irony, I'm neutral and at least try and involve some Constructive debate on this contentious subject, yet you wish to have a go at me, when you of all people hold a biased view. Scut your the one with the problem mate - get it sorted! Oh and while your at it, brush up on your history, that is if it is possible to see the facts through your already biased view.

When you can be adult and constructive about the matter, then perhaps we'll have something to debate?

[fall-apart]

quote:
the friggin irony, I'm neutral and at least try and involve some Constructive debate

Where?  By telling me I don't know the subjects I teach?  Good one...  You still haven't answered my question - what terrorist acts of Israel equates them with the Palestinians?

[VorLonUK]

Things Like

Egyptian Jews, Firebomb campaign, triggered by Israeli radio.

Early "terrorists" such as the Stern Gang

FA, the list goes on and on. Both sides are very much to blame and rather than finger pointing which seems to be such a trend on forums like this, which offers nothing constructive, I would very much like to see peace in that area.

Pointing the finger at one side does nothing but escalate a negative view. This has been going on for years, but in recent times the balance of power has shifted greatly on the side of the Israeli's. I feel that you don't take everything into account when you stse your position. If you look at the unemployment, poverty and refugee status a once pround people now have, can you not accept that they will retaliate anyway they know how. I'm sure that if they had Apache helicopters, Abrams tanks and a poffesional army at their disposal that they would not likely use suicide bombers and the like.

I'm going to leave this subject on this note, that I hope that soon the Israeli's and Palestinians can get together and find a way forward to peace. It would make things better for everyone concerned. If me wanting to see peace over above the "Finger pointing" is a problem to you, then tough, that's my view!

[fall-apart]

No problem - I just wonder why you haven't brought up any instances of Israeli terrorism since the present Intafada started... maybe because there aren't any?  Come on, every nation has a shady past (US and slavery), but that doesn't mean that what's going on now is any less damnable because of it: "Oh, the Israelis once has these fringe organisations that pulled off a couple of terrorist ops, so it's okay that the Palestinians send weekly suicide bombers into grocery stores."  Give me a break.