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VorLonUK
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« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2004, 04:15:45 PM » |
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quote:
couple of terrorist ops
Vs quote:
weekly suicide bombers
and you ask me to give "you a break". Not that you see an imbalance FA! Unbelievable, your bias is there in black and white and people wonder why the middle eastern conflict is perpetuated. |
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mcBuddha
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« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2004, 05:22:24 PM » |
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Vorlon: we only hear about the successful terrorist attacks, the IDF stops most of them. So weekly may not be far off the mark.
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Reflex
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« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2004, 08:18:35 PM » |
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Israel has done little to minimize casulties, a strike I read about a few months back they sent an attack chopper in and blew up the car of a Hezbollah leader. The resulting attack killed 9 innocent bystanders and leveled an apartment building. THAT is a precision strike? How about the bulldozers they use on people's homes, exactly what terrorist activity is that countering?
Secondly, why do you people seem to think that civillians are not a legitimate target in war? Until Vietnam they have *always* been considered legit targets. Just ask the residents of Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Berlin, and numerous villages of Korea and Vietnam. Look into what Sherman did during the Civil War, or Britain during the Revolution and the war of 1812. Heck, the 'terrorist' tactics of the Revolutionary forces in this nation were that we considered British officers to be a valid target, which was simply 'barbaric' by British standards.
War is war. I am not saying that people should kill anyone, however trying to set rules for war is rediculous and they will get broken by the side with the most to lose. Thats just a fact of life. If there was an occupying force here in the US, you can bet we would use whatever tactics necessary to free ourselves, no matter what other people labeled us for it. I know I would.
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fall-apart
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« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2004, 08:34:25 PM » |
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quote:
How about the bulldozers they use on people's homes, exactly what terrorist activity is that countering?
Bomb-making |
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Arrow
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« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2004, 10:11:24 PM » |
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quote:
Secondly, why do you people seem to think that civillians are not a legitimate target in war? Until Vietnam they have *always* been considered legit targets. Just ask the residents of Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Berlin, and numerous villages of Korea and Vietnam. Look into what Sherman did during the Civil War, or Britain during the Revolution and the war of 1812. Heck, the 'terrorist' tactics of the Revolutionary forces in this nation were that we considered British officers to be a valid target, which was simply 'barbaric' by British standards.
War is war. I am not saying that people should kill anyone, however trying to set rules for war is rediculous and they will get broken by the side with the most to lose. Thats just a fact of life. If there was an occupying force here in the US, you can bet we would use whatever tactics necessary to free ourselves, no matter what other people labeled us for it. I know I would.
Well shit, lets just nuke everything from the Nile to Tibet and be done with it! |
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Reflex
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« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2004, 02:08:33 AM » |
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quote:
Originally posted by: fall-apart
quote:
How about the bulldozers they use on people's homes, exactly what terrorist activity is that countering?
Bomb-making
Oh? So *thats* what the poor girl from my home state was up to when she was in Palastein on a humanitarian mission for college credit and was crushed by bulldozers knocking down the house she was in without warning. I forgot that they teach bomb making at our universities here. |
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Intuit
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« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2004, 04:22:05 AM » |
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Mr. Croft... you're interfering with peoples' points here.
1) They're ALL guilty.
2) They're ALL wrong.
3) They're ALL ruthless, evil, terrorist, animals.
4) The poor, defenseless, free and just Israelis are only defending themselves against unwarranted, baseless attacks.
STOP THAT WILL YA !!!!
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fall-apart
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« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2004, 08:34:12 AM » |
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quote:
Originally posted by: Reflex-Croft
quote:
Originally posted by: fall-apart
quote:
How about the bulldozers they use on people's homes, exactly what terrorist activity is that countering?
Bomb-making
Oh? So *thats* what the poor girl from my home state was up to when she was in Palastein on a humanitarian mission for college credit and was crushed by bulldozers knocking down the house she was in without warning. I forgot that they teach bomb making at our universities here.
Actually, from the reports I've read she was standing in the way of a bulldozer which was trying to destroy an alleged bomb factory. So while she wasn't making the bombs, she was colluding with those who were. |
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Babar
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« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2004, 11:28:17 AM » |
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I don't think he's talking about Rachel Corrie actually... he said she was *IN* a house...
But to address your point, she was "colluding" with those who were?
No... I don't think so, sorry....
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fall-apart
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« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2004, 12:36:28 PM » |
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Okay, show me some other american liberal college student who was pulverized by an Israeli bolldozer... it would have been all over the news if there was a second one. Collusion:  |
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Babar
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« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2004, 02:15:29 PM » |
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Ok, fall-apart, i'm sick of this bull. How does your above picture excuse THIS?  |
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Babar
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« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2004, 02:17:01 PM » |
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Keep in mind that your picture is of her burning a copy of the israeli flag drawn with color markers. Big deal. They ran her over w/ a dozer....
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fall-apart
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« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2004, 02:18:04 PM » |
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I'm not excusing that - I'm just saying she's not as innocent as the raving moonbats make her out to be...
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Babar
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« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2004, 03:02:02 PM » |
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Good--now that you've backed away from making absolute statements and now that you admit it's inexcusable to run over someone armed with absolutely nothing, would you mind telling me how Israel is the innocent little bunny rabbit in all this? My point has ALWAYS been that both sides are complicit in this nonsense, yet the argument persists that Israel is an innocent little bunny rabbit. Do innocent little bunny rabbits do THESE?  This 10-year-old Palestinian boy was beaten to death by an Israeli army officer/settler on October 27, 1996. The boy’s name was Helmi Shawashe. The Israeli man suspected Helmi of throwing rocks at his car, so he pressed his army boots against the little boy’s neck and beat him savagely on the head with the butt of his pistol. When Helmi began screaming and begging for his life, the Israeli dragged the little boy through thorny terrain and resumed beating him until he lost consciousness. Helmi died the next day of a massive brain hemorrhage.     (Gee, they're awfully respectful and tolerant of Muslims aren't they??? Little Israeli kid kicking a Muslim woman walking by herself....) |
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fall-apart
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« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2004, 03:05:38 PM » |
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Without context, those last images mean nothing.
And what happened to the Israeli officer who beat the boy to death? Was he celebrated as a hero by the Israeli people, as the suicide bombers are among the Palestinians?
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Babar
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« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2004, 03:17:30 PM » |
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quote:
Without context, those last images mean nothing.
Are you quite serious, Fall-apart? By that statement you just invalidated every single one of Ric's photos as well. And the Israeli who killed the little boy was acquitted by an Israeli court. The judge called the eyewitnesses liars, and ignored the testimony of the Israeli chief coroner who testified that the cause of the boy's death was directly attributable to the actions of the Israeli. Keep it coming, Fall-apart. Israel is equally complicit in this nonsense. You cannot deny this. |
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Reflex
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« Reply #41 on: November 10, 2004, 03:37:50 PM » |
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I'll give the context for the boy and father sitting against the wall:
This was all over the news, one of the few times I have seen Israeli atrocities shown on television. He was walking his son to school, and a gunfight broke out. The Israelis were shooting at people with rocks. He was caught in the middle, got against the wall, and tried to protect his son. Begged for his life the whole time, the Israeli soldiers finally shot his son, and then him. I believe he survived but his son did not.
It was one of the more terrible things I have seen out of that conflict.
Once again, I am NOT absolving the terrorists. But there is plenty of blame to go around here and neither side is any more 'right' than the other at this point.
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Babar
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« Reply #42 on: November 10, 2004, 04:00:43 PM » |
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Like you Reflex-Croft I am not absolving the terrorists. But I refuse to absolve the Israelis either.
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fall-apart
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« Reply #43 on: November 10, 2004, 04:26:05 PM » |
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How do you shoot someone with a rock? I thought you shot people with bullets...
R-C - are you not the one who said people die in war and civilians are as good a target as any? I'm not saying that the man & his son deserved to die, but war is messy. No one is trying to say that the Israelis haven't had collateral damage in many of their assaults, but their targets are not the innocent civilians that are the subjects of the Palestinian splodeydopes. The IDF targets terrorists. The Palestinians target civilians.
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Babar
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« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2004, 04:40:01 PM » |
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Fall-apart, once again you slide back into the abyss of "i didn't see anything, i didn't see anything." In the pictures I showed you, please point out one picture where the Israelis were not targeting civilians. The 10 year boy=civilian. Children=civilians. Boy & father=civilian. Little jewish boy kicking a muslim civilian....
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fall-apart
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« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2004, 05:04:27 PM » |
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Because there is no context. Is the soldier looking at something beyond the family? The boy and the father are in the middle of a firefight. Targets? No. Collateral damage while going after targets? Likely. The Jewish boy one also lacks context. Did the woman take something from the boy? Without context, it is impossible to know.
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Reflex
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« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2004, 05:41:59 PM » |
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Fall-Apart - You have been told the context. You are choosing to disregard it. You have been told that they are not 'precise' in their strikes, that there is often MUCH collateral damage. You have justified that. You have been informed of people caught in the crossfire. To you its 'war is messy', a point that you previously were vehmently against when used by others in this thread. You are willing to conjure up the image of the brutality of suicide bombers. But you are unwilling to acknowledge the images of Israeli brutality. You were given a specific story of a US citizen caught in the crossfire and killed by a bulldozer. You chose to slander her, and condemn her for protesting the atrocities she was there to assist the victims of.
Your mind is made up. God help you.
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Reflex
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« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2004, 05:47:38 PM » |
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You know, as recently as two years ago I was extremely pro-Israel. Someone who came into my life, a Jew actually, started telling me how it really was. She really opened my eyes to what was going on, and how sad it was that the US and Germany are pretty much the only nations that refuse to even acknowledge that there are two sides to this battle. She showed me how their political system is designed in such a way as to keep the hard liners in power, despite the fact that most Israeli Jews actually support equalizing the system. The ruling party has less than 25% of the country behind them, but thanks to how they design districts, and the coalition design of their governments, moderates have no chance to hold sway.
Its sad. But sadder still is that we support this mess. No, the Palastenians and the Hezbollah, and Hamas, and Islamic Jihad, and yes, the IDF are *all* wrong in every aspect of this. But it won't end as long as the Israeli's get all the money and military support they want from the US and Germany. The cycle will simply continue endlessly.
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fall-apart
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« Reply #48 on: November 10, 2004, 05:52:12 PM » |
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Actually, if we let slip the leash on the Israelis and allowed them to counter-attack the way the US has, the problem would be solved.
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fall-apart
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« Reply #49 on: November 10, 2004, 05:54:47 PM » |
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quote:
Originally posted by: Reflex-Croft
Fall-Apart - You have been told the context. You are choosing to disregard it. You have been told that they are not 'precise' in their strikes, that there is often MUCH collateral damage. You have justified that. You have been informed of people caught in the crossfire. To you its 'war is messy', a point that you previously were vehmently against when used by others in this thread. You are willing to conjure up the image of the brutality of suicide bombers. But you are unwilling to acknowledge the images of Israeli brutality. You were given a specific story of a US citizen caught in the crossfire and killed by a bulldozer. You chose to slander her, and condemn her for protesting the atrocities she was there to assist the victims of.
Your mind is made up. God help you.
Once again, the civilians killed by the IDF are unintended consequences of war. The civilians killed by the Palestinians are the deliberate targets of these terrorists. If you can't see this difference, God help you. |
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