Nemo:
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Comparing the current situation with Muslims to the more-or-less success of Jews in integrating within Europe in order to imply some that some cultural attributes of the Muslims is at play here is a slippery slope. While cultural difference may be at play, do not forget that it took the Jews two millenia and cost them over six million lives to get to where they are today. For many centuries there was a raging argument amongst European Jews as to what degree to assimilate into Europe society and to what degree to maintain their separateness.
TM:
Yes but the Torah does not have the violent language the Qur'an has even 1/10th the strength.
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I have never read the Koran, but even if it is more violent than the Old Testament, which I have read a few times, I think that it is quite a leap to assume that it is a significant causal factor in the current situation. While what we read about the riots is rather framentary and incomplete, I haven't read anything so far indicating that religion is playing a large role in the rioting; and unless I do, I am not going to jump to that conclusion.
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Nemo
quote:
To this, we have to add the historical animosity towards Islam by the Catholic Church, which is almost as strong as its historical animosity toward Judaism.
TM:
I would completely disagree with this statement. It is the Muslims that have the enormous historical animosity towards Christians and in many parts due to the very wording in the Qur'an.
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My point is something along the lines of if the Jews, who have never posed a threat to Europe in terms of conquest (but did pose a theological problem), had such a difficult time being accepted, then it is not unreasonable that a Muslim population in Europe would also have a very difficult time.
In terms of history, I highly recommend
The Crusades. This DVD, aside from being very entertaining, gives one an appreciation of the animosity between Chritianity and Islam. Europe has a history of xenophobia and I would argue that this plays a role here, though I am certainly not arguing that this is the only or even primary cause of the current situation. As I said, the situation is complicated. But an understanding of the Crusades does give one an understanding of how once again (relative to the Jews) European Christianity whipped the populace into a hatred of a people for no particularly good reason and why there is historical enmity between the two people.
As you mentioned the Koran again, my opinion is that religious leaders, not scripture, start religious conflict. For example, was the Inquisition caused by scripture, or by the Catholic Church? But as I mentioned earlier, I believe it is way too simple to explain the current situation as a religious one
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Nemo:
quote:
I don't see how one could lay the blame for what is going on to permissiveness and a progressive socialist leaning. If the haystack is burning, to me, it makes no sense to blame the needle.
As to liberal immigration policy, I think it was inevitable once France colonized Algeria, which is a fairly short boat ride away, that there would eventually be a non-trivial Algerian population in France. If one is to blame liberal immigration policy, then equal blame shoud be give to colonizing North Africa. The Brits are relatively lucky in that most of their colonies were a much much further boat ride away.
TM:
Colonizing another nation would not explain the loose immigration laws found in France. The blame I believe has far more to do with the Muslim immigrants whose very teachings and relgious messages in the Qur'an preach the most ardent intolerance of anyone other than fellow Muslims far more than any other major religion.
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That the insularity of the Arab and North African communities plays a role, I do not deny. Neither do I deny that their traditional attitude towards women creates friction. Nor do I deny that they may have a way different work ethic (or not, how about a couple of glasses of wine during a long lunch?). Also, the high birth rate amongst this population also may contribute to French fear (which would be kinda ironic given that France provides significant financial reward for large families). But, the Koran provides an insufficient explanation for this.
Once again, if we look at history, the Islamic world was at one time a very open world, full of academic endeavor and great art. In fact, one can argue that it was the Crusades followed by the even more brutal Mongol invasion that destroyed Islamic high culture.
My point is that it was the same Koran when the Islamic world preserved Western knowledge through the Dark Ages as it is today. And that therefore, the Koran cannot be blamed.
From a personal perspective, I do take note that my maternal ancestors lived under the Islamic Moors. My understanding is that although the Jews were considered second class citizens, they were free to practice their religion and in exchange for paying certain taxes were protected by the Moors. This was quite an improvment over living under Christian rule both before and after (though there were issues with fundamentalits towards the end of Muslim control).
The Jews thrived under Islamic rule and that period is often referred to as a
golden age. The Koran was the same Koran then as it is today.
Sixty three percent of the Jewish population of Europe died during the Holocaust. Europe was then as it is now overwhelmingly Christian, particularly Western Europe. The New Testament was the same then as it is now.
Once again, my point is that religious scripture is an insufficient explanation for religious intolerance and hatred.
Muslims make up about 8% of France's population (that's right, one in twelve residents of France is a Muslim). How it got there is pretty much besides the point at this point. France and its Muslim population are going to have to figure it out. Sure, you can blame it all on letting the Muslims in, for if they were not there, there would be no rioting. Unfortunately, this does zippo to help resolve the problem.
It makes about as much sense as saying there would have been no Holocaust had there been no Jews in Europe, which would be very ironic as it was the Europeans who kicked the Jews out of their homeland and forced the Jews to flee to among other places, Europe (the Romans, who were Europeans, in about CE 130). Isn't it strange that in a very real way Europe itself created the 'Jewish problem'?
The relationship and hatred between European Christianity and Islam has a long history that cannot be unilaterally blamed on the Muslims or the Koran. Europe has a long history of xenophobia. My primary point is that French nativism undoubtedly plays A role in the current situation, which has been festering for quite a while.
There is a price to be paid for Empire. Britain has gone through it and still is. Now, France is going through it. Many of the Muslims now living in France lived in France's colonies. Many, likley most, are children/decendents of those who immigrated from those colonies. If France had not built that empire, there would probably be far fewer Muslims in France. Once again, this does little to solve the current problem.
I guess that what bothers me is that everyone seems to be focusing on the cause of the problem, instead of the solution. While examining causes can often help solve a problem, in this case, it seems to be a blame game that contributes little to a solution.
What I fear is that a knee jerk equating of the riots to Islamic terrorism and ascribing the exact same roots to both problems has the potential to make the situation in France far far worse than it need be. Similarly, making this out to be a primarily religious problem is a gross oversimplification that contributes nothing to addressing the situation.
The problems in the French ghettos has been simmering for a very long time and the lid blew. It isn't clear to me that either 'side' did much to slow or stop the simmering. Hopefully, this unfortunate blow-up will cause all to wake up and address the underlying issueS.
This is about the lack of integration of an immigrant population, not about Islam. That the immigrants were not Christian probably made the situation worse, but that is not the same as saying that it has to do with the immigrant population being Muslim.
