A new way to get screwed on your insurance!

[Rocky]

LR- thats why you will always be clueless.  Do you realize that the republicans are in control of every branch of government?  And have been for many years?  So who do you think made the laws ove rhte last few years?  Really, honestly, who do you think did?  I also know you think special interest groups play to big of a role in government, and in the past 5 years who do you think has listened to those groups if they are so influential?  Honestly, really, who do you think?  I havent seen the democrats pass many of their initiatives lately, and actually have been pretty unsuccessful in general.  

So really LR, honestly, sit down and think about.  The republicans are in power, on here and in the media they have no problem telling the country that.  Cause they are.  But why is it when something goes wrong you dont hold them to that?  With power comes responsibility.  Why do you discard everything anyone says against them?  Cause Im a democrat?  Is that really your simplistic logic?  

You asked me because I do have the experience to understand these things.  And Im telling you, look into the issue, find out why the law has changed and who changed it.  Go look LR, go look before attacking me.  I guarentee you will come up with one word, republicans.  And yes its that simple.  Unfortunately, its that simple.  I would change that if I could.  I wish you could blame democrats for everything, I wish we were in control of all the branches of congress, I wish we had made all the laws, I would be happy if we could be to blame for all your problems.  That would mean we were in power and passing other things we beleive in.  But were not, the democrats have failed for years now.  You cant point hte finger at us anymore, we have very little power, Im sorry LR, but thats the case in our country.  So instead of opening your mouth and claiming what you claimed, how about do a little research first and figure it out yourself.  You asked me, and I answered from experience and knowledge.  Go get some yourself.

[Mefistofeles]

Do you realize that the republicans are in control of every branch of government? And have been for many years?

George Bush would have never had the authority to go to war if the Democrats did not vote for it.  During the run up to the war the Democrats have easily fillbustered any war resolution if they maintained party unity.

Again Democrats defected over to Bush's side during the tax cuts and again had enough power in the Senate to stall that vote.

Democrats have managed to kill Bush's refinery bill and have stopped ANWAR drilling.  

So when they want to the Democrats can be a real opposition party.  Unfortunately they want the best of both worlds vote for the war and tax cuts and say all the problems as a result of these things are Bush's fault.

I'll tell you why the Democrats are marginal party.  What plan do they have for Iraq if they took power tommorrow: more troops.  That was Kerry's official position on the war we need more troops in Iraq.

What about energy: tax the oil companies more.  Okay how will that create refinery capacity or increases crude oil or natural gas production?  The  energy industry is alread running very near full capacity.

The only strength that the Democrats have is that they do not have W in their party.  

Although I disagree with Nader and the progressives they have real ideas that could revolutionize the country.  Withdraw from Iraq increase gas taxes.  These ideas could make a real difference.  Unfortunately the Democrats are simply content to act as the left wing of the Republican party.

[nemoComputing]

Voting in Democrats might not do anything to control the insurance, banking and brokerage industries.  Think about where Democrats get their corporate contributions from.  It isn't defense contracters, mining interests and so on.  A lot of it comes from financial and high tech companies.  Look at how the Democrats supported the bankruptcy bill.

[ric]

Originally posted by: Rocky

LR- thats why you will always be clueless.  Do you realize that the republicans are in control of every branch of government?  And have been for many years?  So who do you think made the laws ove rhte last few years?  Really, honestly, who do you think did?  I also know you think special interest groups play to big of a role in government, and in the past 5 years who do you think has listened to those groups if they are so influential?  Honestly, really, who do you think?  I havent seen the democrats pass many of their initiatives lately, and actually have been pretty unsuccessful in general.  



So really LR, honestly, sit down and think about.  The republicans are in power, on here and in the media they have no problem telling the country that.  Cause they are.  But why is it when something goes wrong you dont hold them to that?  With power comes responsibility.  Why do you discard everything anyone says against them?  Cause Im a democrat?  Is that really your simplistic logic?  



You asked me because I do have the experience to understand these things.  And Im telling you, look into the issue, find out why the law has changed and who changed it.  Go look LR, go look before attacking me.  I guarentee you will come up with one word, republicans.  And yes its that simple.  Unfortunately, its that simple.  I would change that if I could.  I wish you could blame democrats for everything, I wish we were in control of all the branches of congress, I wish we had made all the laws, I would be happy if we could be to blame for all your problems.  That would mean we were in power and passing other things we beleive in.  But were not, the democrats have failed for years now.  You cant point hte finger at us anymore, we have very little power, Im sorry LR, but thats the case in our country.  So instead of opening your mouth and claiming what you claimed, how about do a little research first and figure it out yourself.  You asked me, and I answered from experience and knowledge.  Go get some yourself.

Is this all you've got? cuz feeding us that line of leftist propaganda BS is NOT enough to turn the tide. If you can convince me... then tell me now!!!

[Rocky]

"Look at how the Democrats supported the bankruptcy bill. "

Nemo- I think one thing that people dont understand in times like this are why dems vote for so many bills that they dont really consider good bills.  Its because of something call compromise.  Democrats know that hte republicans can get any bill passed they want, but many republicans still want dem votes, main reason is because it looks good.  If its bipartisanyou can say it is, and if the initiative fails in the real world you can look back and go, well both parties supported it.  But the truth of the matter is that dems sell out their votes for small changes in the main bill.  Is this good or bad is probably debatable.  But if it gives the Congressman something to tout about when he goes home to his state, then its probably worth it, even if the main bill isnt something they consider progress.  They have to get what they can.  Now before you rant on me about how partisan I am, this is what the republicans had to do for 40 years in Congress before '94, so its pretty well proven.

[Mefistofeles]

Democrats know that hte republicans can get any bill passed they want, but many republicans still want dem votes, main reason is because it looks good.

The refinery bill died in the Senate commitee and ANWAR, well its still being debated despite high energy prices and intense Presidential pressure to open it up.

But if it gives the Congressman something to tout about when he goes home to his state, then its probably worth it, even if the main bill isnt something they consider progress. They have to get what they can.

So by that logic the Democrats wanted to brag about supporting the war and tax cuts!  They support these issues but don't support them right?  Its a strange a twisted logic that only makes sense in the world of politics.

[nemoComputing]

Rocky,  I followed the progress of the bankruptcy bill pretty closely.  Like none of the amendments to make the bill less onerous passed (for those serving in Iraq, for those who are declaring bankruptcy because of medical billls and so on).  If you can find an example of how that bill was made less onerous by the Dems, I am all ears.

Rocky, although I have only recently started being active on the Politics board it should be pretty obvious that I don't rant (though I came close in one of my posts on the history of the Crusaders) .  I leave that to others.  You and TM do a good job of that when you go at each other:>

My perspective is that we are at the tail end of an age of greed and corruption that is very similar to that which preceded the Great Depression.  When it comes to our government these days, I think it pretty clear that it rarely operates in the interests of the people and often acts in the interest of corporations and the wealthy.  And on top of that, it ignores issues whose negative impact will not be seen until after the next election.  Unfortunately, it will end the same way the Roaring Twenties ended, with untold suffering.  In fact, given, the population of this country and the world, and the much more complex world we live in today (not to mention all the WMD's), it has the potential to make the great depression look like the good old days.

When Sen. Bob Graham, former Chairman of the Sen. Intel. Committee, voted no on the Iraq war resolution, why didn't his fellow Democrats find out why he was going to vote against it and follow suit?  Why didn't the Dems speak out against all this globalization stuff when it was apparent from the get go that it would lead us to where we are (Perot's 'sucking' sound).  In what way, manner, or form did the Dems mitigate the tax cuts?

The next time the Dems are in power, they will continue the sellout that Clinton began.  In my opinion, few noticed because the economy was booming during his term.  They won't be as overt in their corruption as the Repukelicans, but the power of the corporations will be darn near impossible to stop.

That beign said, I think it would be hard for the Dems to match the current levels of corruption in the Republcan party.  But I could be wrong.  There are good Dems, but if it is the likes of Lieberman and Hillary that lead their comeback, heaven help us.

Welcome to the brave new world - get your Soma, I mean IPod, now.

[Rocky]

GOod points nemo and mef.  I think to answer most of your questions on why dems voted for some of the things, its because they were made politically popular by a politically popular president.  The war?  Well it was sold in conjunction with the war agaisnt al queda, it was a few brave people who could vote against it.  Most people then couldnt afford to defy a president with 80% approval ratings.  Thats just the reality of the situation.  Unfortunately our country is suffering because of hte vote now.  Even war supporters, such as myself, think the blank check they gave the administration wasnt a smart move, it castrated congress's power to declare war.  Getting reelected is the first priority of most people, and its tough to blame them, its tough to do much good for your party if you arent the party getting elected.  Its not the idealist answer, but its true.



"The refinery bill died in the Senate commitee and ANWAR, well its still being debated despite high energy prices and intense Presidential pressure to open it up. "

The senate is a different entity for sure.  6-yr terms make a huge difference. Also some weirdly elected senators.  Did you know that the democrat senators actually represent more people than the republican senators do?  Thats pretty strange considering if you look at hte same stat with house representatives.  But regarding your comment about high energy prices, the country is completely fooled, ANWR is going to have 0 effect on energy prices.  Production wont start from ANWR for 10 years, and wont be at full capacity for 20 years.  So its not a quick fix by any means.  Dont want this to be an ANWR thread I guess, I like it as why things are the way they are.  No politics, just simple academic congressional research

[Lord Raiden]

Ok, this drifted into a political discussion, so I'm moving this to the politics forum.  lol.  OH well.

[Reflex]

Rocky - Why is that stat strange?  The Senate represents the states on the national level, not the people directly.  The House represents the people of their district.  Since we are a republic and not a strict democracy and our states have rights of their own this makes a lot of sense.  I see nothing odd about all that.

As for blame, both parties have sold us out since 1992 pretty badly.  They lost focus after the end of the cold war and really do not seem to know what to do anymore.  So issues are invented, disasters are magnified, new threats are blown out of proportion, and the people are given things to worry about in place of the Evil Soviets(tm).  It is like this country has no idea what to do with itself when not facing a national threat.  We can't just live our lives, fix our own issues, and spread the word of democracy around the globe by example.  Instead we meddle, interfere, and have the audacity to believe we can 'civilize' the world.  Much like the imperial powers of the colonial age.

What pure arrogance.  We will get ours.  Our core is rotting, our foundations falling apart.  We have changed from a nation of production to one of consumption.  Democrats and Republicans both have hastened that change and are equally responsible for the inevitable crater our economy will become.

[Rocky]

I dont buy it RC, sounds like an excuse.  Because in this day and age there is very little that is equal between republicans and democrats.  Thats just the facts.  You said since 1992, but look at the power shift since 1992.  You may say both are to blame, and maybe to some point. But theres an obvious trend since after the 1992 elections, and I dont beleive its just irony.

[Reflex]

I'm not sure what you mean exactly, Rocky.  8 years of Clinton followed by 5 years of Bush, the Senate being equal or Republican dominated, the house Republican since 94.  Its pretty equal.  Furthermore, the Dems have not even articulated whats wrong at all, they have done NOTHING to put the real problems into the national consciousness, worried more about Iraq and national health care than they are about the fact that the very economy that makes all this possible is eroding away rapidly.  Right now its the Republican's fault mostly for what is actually happening, however its also the Dem's fault for not speaking up.  A few years ago it was the Dem's fault.  As far as I am concerned, both are to blame.

You cannot run an economy forever that produces absolutely nothing.  This does not mean we have to be a manufacturing base.  For a while during the 90's there was talk of an 'information economy' which really would have been a nice ideal.  However that is now going overseas as well, before it ever really set in.  What will be left is nothing but retail, and a continual drain of our wealth to the overseas producers of products, services, information and technology.  Both political parties have had their chances and still do even right now.  Yet neither is willing to stand up and say "Look, we are in trouble", leave the rhetoric behind and elucidate a plan of action to restore the underpinnings of our economy and society.

Its like watching a train wreck in slow motion.  We won't even realize how bad its gotten until we are nearly at third world levels.  The really sad part is that I do not believe the EU and Japan are very far behind us, and in fact may collapse first, hastening our downfall.

[Rocky]

"A few years ago it was the Dem's fault. "

You mean when we had budget surpluses and the economy was booming?  And then Bush was elected and said "outsourcing is good for our economy"  Is that what your talking about?

[Reflex]

No, I think I mean when Clinton kept up this 'Most favorable nation' crap with China, willingly sent advanced technology(even illegally) to them, and kept raising the H1B Visa caps.  And then there was the lack of any attempt to defend the steel, lumber and automotive industries.

[crobs808]

Originally posted by: Jasper
Begs the question, which is worse? Liberals controlling the media or oil companies controlling the most powerful person in the world?

this is what liberals do these days...you confront them on something and say something like "Sandy Berger did this..." and they will say, "Well, it wasn't as bad as this guy who did this..." like that excuses it or something.

So if you go out and knock someone unconscious, and I go out and kill someone, then what you did wasn't that bad?

im so TIRED of the liberal mindset.  yes, the liberal media IS causing way more trouble brainwashing our youth to think that pulling out of Iraq and causing a civil war is more important than saving lives.

i know, OT, but the path was paved.

~ Connor

[mikevalla]

Originally posted by: crobs808im so TIRED of the liberal mindset.  yes, the liberal media IS causing way more trouble brainwashing our youth to think that pulling out of Iraq and causing a civil war is more important than saving lives.

First of all- how many young people do you know of that watch the news on a regular basis, much less a biased station in which a push for withdrawal is a mjor issue?  Also, how would the US be a "cause" of civil war in Iraq?  I have seen no such war, and I watch the news fairly frequently.  I'd like to thin to think that if there WERE a civil war going on, I would know about it.

Also- do YOU think it is important to save the lives of our own citizens that are on patrol in Iraq?

[lightprocess]

Well, the idea is that the lack of our presence (i.e., the US leaving) would create a void only to be filled by civil war. IMO, there's probably a pretty good chance of that happening, which is why I'm against immediate withdrawl. However, I don't believe any major outlets for the 'liberal media' are actually encouraging withdrawl. We went in without much of a plan, now we have to tough it out. It's unfair to the people we've been working so hard to 'liberate'.