Why are the Republicans the ones full of hot air?

[Babar]

I find it ironic that the party that loves to jump headfirst into war is the party with the least military experience. See below.

Military records:

Democrats:
* Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71.
* David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72.
* Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72.
* Al Gore: enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam Jan. 1971 as an army journalist in 20th Engineer Brigade.
* Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam.
* Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-47; Medal of Honor, WWII.
* John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V, Purple Hearts.
* Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea.
* Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam. Paraplegic from war injuries.
* Representative Jack Murtha (D-PA) - distinguished 37-year career in the U.S. Marine Corps, Bronze Star and two Purple Hearts, retired from the Marine Corps Reserve as a colonel in 1990.
* Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-53.
* Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74.
* Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91.
* Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII; Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons.
* Leonard Boswell: Lt. Col., Army 1956-76; Vietnam, DFCs, Bronze Stars, and Soldier's Medal.
* Pete Peterson: Air Force Captain, POW. Purple Heart, Silver Star and Legion of Merit.
* Mike Thompson: Staff sergeant, 173rd Airborne, Purple Heart.
* Bill McBride: Candidate for Fla. Governor. Marine in Vietnam; Bronze Star with Combat
* Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze Star.
* Pete Stark: Air Force 1955-57
* Chuck Robb: Vietnam
* Howell Heflin: Silver Star
* George McGovern: Silver Star & DFC during WWII.
* Bill Clinton: Did not serve. Student deferments. Entered draft but received #311.
* Jimmy Carter: Seven years in the Navy.
* Walter Mondale: Army 1951-1953
* John Glenn: WWII and Korea; six DFCs and AirMedal with 18 Clusters.
* Tom Lantos: Served in Hungarian underground in WWII. Saved by Raoul Wallenberg.
* Wesley Clark: U.S. Army, 1966-2000, West Point, Vietnam, Purple Heart, Silver Star. Retired 4-star general


Republicans:
* John McCain: Lt. Comdr, Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross.
* Former Senator Bob Dole: combat infantry officer during WWII, two Purple Hearts and Bronze Star with an Oak Cluster for military service, lost use of right arm
* Colin Powell: US Army, 35-year career, Vietnam, rose to the rank of 4-star general
* Secretary of Homeland Security Tom Ridge - US Army. Vietnam War. Awarded the Bronze Star for Valor, Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry and the Combat Infantry Badge.
* Vice President ***** Cheney: did not serve. Several deferments, the last by marriage.
* Dennis Hastert: did not serve.
* Tom Delay: did not serve.
* Roy Blunt: did not serve.
* Bill Frist: did not serve.
* Mitch McConnell: did not serve.
* Rick Santorum: did not serve.
* Trent Lott: did not serve.
* John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business.
* Jeb Bush: did not serve.
* Karl Rove: did not serve.
* Saxby Chambliss: did not serve. "Bad knee." The man who attacked Max Cleland's patriotism.
* Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.
* Vin Weber: did not serve.
* Richard Perle: did not serve.
* Douglas Feith: did not serve.
* Richard Armitage: U.S. Navy, Naval Academy, 3 combat tours in Vietnam
* Eliot Abrams: did not serve.
* Richard Shelby: did not serve.
* Jon Kyl: did not serve.
* Tim Hutchison: did not serve.
* Christopher Cox: did not serve.
* Newt Gingrich: did not serve.
* Don Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as flight instructor.
* George W. Bush: failed to complete his six-year National Guard; got assigned to Alabama so he could campaign for family friend running for U.S. Senate; failed to show up for required medical exam, disappeared from duty.
* President George H. W. Bush - US Navy. World War II. Awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross.
* President Gerald Ford - US Navy. World War II. Served from 1942-1946.
* Ronald Reagan: due to poor eyesight, served in a non-combat role making movies.
* B-1 Bob Dornan: Consciously enlisted after fighting was over in Korea.
* Phil Gramm: did not serve.
* Dana Rohrabacher: did not serve.
* John M. McHugh: did not serve.
* JC Watts: did not serve.
* Jack Kemp: did not serve. "Knee problem," although continued in NFL for 8 years as quarterback.
* Dan Quayle: Journalism unit of the Indiana National Guard.
* Congressman Wayne Gilchrest (R-MD) - US Marine Corps. Vietnam War. Awarded the Purple Heart, Bronze Star, and Navy Commendation Medal.
* Senator Ted Stevens (R-AK) - US Air Force. World War II. Awarded two Distinguished Flying Crosses, two Air Medals, and the Yuan Hai Medal awarded by the Republic of China.
* Congressman Sam Johnson (R-TX) - US Air Force. Korean and Vietnam War. POW in Hanoi from April 1966 to February 1973.
* Senator Jeff Sessions (R-AL) - US Army Reserves. Served from 1973-1986.
* Congresswoman Heather Wilson (R-NM) - US Air Force. Served from 1978-1989.
* Senator John Warner: United States Navy 1944-1946
* Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.
* George Pataki: did not serve.
* Spencer Abraham: did not serve.
* John Engler: did not serve.
* Lindsey Graham: National Guard lawyer.
* Arnold Schwarzenegger: AWOL from Austrian army base.


Pundits & Preachers
* Sean Hannity: did not serve.
* Rush Limbaugh: did not serve (4-F with a 'pilonidal cyst.')
* Bill O'Reilly: did not serve.
* Michael Savage: did not serve.
* George Will: did not serve.
* Chris Matthews: did not serve.
* Paul Gigot: did not serve.
* Bill Bennett: did not serve.
* Pat Buchanan: did not serve.
* John Wayne: did not serve.
* Bill Kristol: did not serve.
* Kenneth Starr: did not serve.
* Antonin Scalia: did not serve.
* Clarence Thomas: did not serve.
* Ralph Reed: did not serve.
* Michael Medved: did not serve.
* Charlie Daniels: did not serve.
* Ted Nugent: did not serve. (He only shoots at things that don't shoot back.)

[Babar]

Why are the Republicans the ones full of hot air?

[Lord Raiden]

IT's interesting that you didn't list all the dems that didn't serve.  Your list is ill representative honestly.  The total military service on both sides is actually about equal.  The pundits though I have to agree with.  These guys did not do time in the military and really have no grounds to speak on.

[Rocky]

"The total military service on both sides is actually about equal"

?? WHat are you talking about.

[Lord Raiden]

The total number who served vs the total number who didn't.

[Reflex]

What do you base that on, Raiden?  I was under the impression that that was Babar's point, few Republicans, especially the 'Hawks' had ever actually served in the military.  Do you have a more complete list than he put up?

BTW, McCain got listed twice...

[ric]

Originally posted by: Rocky

"The total military service on both sides is actually about equal"



?? WHat are you talking about.

I'm talking about power. No Presidency, No Supreme Court and No Congress + No Method.....you ain't got nothing, Roc...Nothing, Nada, Zip, Zilch, Zero! and that is the bottom line

Sorry, but no cigar :-)...

[Texmaster]

President George W. Bush - US Air National Guard. Served from 1968-1973. Twice promoted during his service; first, to 2nd Leutenant and then to 1st Leutenant. Honorably discharged.

President George H. W. Bush - US Navy. World War II. Awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross.

Secretary of State Colin Powell - US Army. Vietnam War. 4-Star General (Ret.). Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (1989-1993). Awarded the Defense Distinguished Service Medal, Army Distinguished Service Medal, Defense Superior Service Medal, Legion of Merit, Solder's Medal, the Bronze Star and Purple Heart.

Secretary of Homeland Security Tom Ridge - US Army. Vietnam War. Awarded the Bronze Star for Valor, Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry and the Combat Infantry Badge.

Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld - US Navy. Naval aviator. Served from 1954-1957.

Senator Ted Stevens (R-AK) - US Air Force. World War II. Awarded two Distinguished Flying Crosses, two Air Medals, and the Yuan Hai Medal awarded by the Republic of China.

Senator Bob Dole (R-KS) (Ret.) - US Army. World War II. Awarded two Purple Hearts and the Bronze Star.

President Gerald Ford - US Navy. World War II. Served from 1942-1946.

Senator John McCain (R-AZ) - US Navy. Vietnam War. Awarded the Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross.

Senator Chuck Hagel (R-NE) - US Army. Vietnam War. Awarded two Purple Hearts and several other decorations.

Congressman Duke Cunningham (R-CA) - US Navy. Vietnam War. Nominated for the Medal of Honor. Awarded the Navy Cross, two Silver Stars, fifteen Air Medals, the Purple Heart, and several other decorations.

Congressman Wayne Gilchrest (R-MD) - US Marine Corps. Vietnam War. Awarded the Purple Heart, Bronze Star, and Navy Commendation Medal.

Congressman Sam Johnson (R-TX) - US Air Force. Korean and Vietnam War. POW in Hanoi from April 1966 to February 1973.

Senator Jeff Sessions (R-AL) - US Army Reserves. Served from 1973-1986.

Congresswoman Heather Wilson (R-NM) - US Air Force. Served from 1978-1989.


I didn't know you had to be in the military to call for action.

And who cares?   What is the point of this?   Does it mean that only people who have served can call for war?

Seems like a few of you forgot Clinton and FDR never served either.


This is just another meaningless Liberal thread that has no real point.

[Babar]

Tex, adding your Republicans (at least the ones I don't have) to my list. See how it looks now. BTW, I added only one more Democrat: Jack Murtha. Oh and I added one Republican you forgot, John Warner.

(as you can see the list of Rs is now twice as long to get the same number of veterans  vis a vis the Dems...Kinda ridiculcous)

[Babar]

was under the impression that that was Babar's point, few Republicans, especially the 'Hawks' had ever actually served in the military.

You read my mind, Reflex. Of the architects of the Iraq war, the ones pushing for it... how many served?

* President George W. Bush: Texas National Guard. Went AWOL.
* Vice President D-I-C-K Cheney: did not serve.
* Dennis Hastert: did not serve.
* Tom Delay: did not serve.
* Karl Rove: did not serve.
* Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.
* Richard Perle: did not serve.
* Douglas Feith: did not serve.
* Condoleezza Rice: did not serve.
* Stephen Cambone: did not serve.
* Don Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as flight instructor.

Interesting, no? 2 out of 11....none of which ever saw combat!

[Lord Raiden]

I do have to agree with Tex on this one.  Just because a lot of republicans haven't been in the military and seen war does not disqualify them.  Abe lincoln was never in the military, yet he lead us through the cival war.  And same with many famous previous presidents and other congretional leaders.  In fact, an equal number of both veterans and non-veterans were awesome leaders in their time in all kinds of offices.  And the same goes for people who were total losers.  Military service does not determine who's more qualified to go to war and who's not.  FDR is an excellent example of that.

So it's a moot point when you say that someone with military experience has more experience and knowledge in the afairs of war.  All I think that does is it gives the person two views of life in the military and on occation, war.  They've seen military life from the inside as well as the outside as opposed to just the outside for those who haven't served.  So if the person in question is an idiot, I don't care of they made it to the rank of 4 star general and won ever war they ever fought in, they're still an idiot and they're going to make decisions like an idiot.  Plain and simple.  Hitler served time in the military and he created the most hated military regime ever that killed the most people ever in history.  JFK was a man who saw military service and he stopped the soviets from turning cuba into a huge nuclear missle carrier.

So what you've shown us means squat.  On the flip side, if you look at the whole history of congress, which for those who wish to validate this, is available through the library of congress (if you can't look it up yourselves, I'm most certainly not going to do the work for you) and it shows that the balance of who was and was not prior service military swings back and forth.  So what if the dems may by chance have more now (which they honestly don't if you do your homework), it'll just swing the other way in a few more elections and things will continue the way they always have.

[Reflex]

It means a lot when they try to emphasize with actual military families, or claim their party better supports the military.  I'd say its pretty telling that retired vets generally don't seem to run for office as Republicans...

[Fontaine]

no wonder powell quit his job when he served in vietnam.

[Lord Raiden]

It's also interesting that the Repubs tend to do more for the military and the dems less.  I saw the military get downsized, budget cut, benefits taken away, and just generally mistreated during the Clinton era, then bush comes in and the military is doing great again.  Doesn't sound like a lot of loyal former military men there to me.  What former military man in his right mind is going to weaken our own military??  So, if they're so gung ho about weakening the military making it harder for us to react to threats anywhere domestically and foreign, how are they qualified to decide if we should go to war or not?  That's like taking a man and sticking him in a cage with a lion, handing him a knife instead of an elephant gun, and telling him to kill it.  The only one who's going to end up dead in that case is the man.  Same thing applies with our military.  Previous stewardship with the military is a good sign of future ability to decide critical defence matters, and so far, the dems don't have all that great a record.

[lightprocess]

Maybe they've learned fighting doesn't solve everything..

[Rocky]

"It's also interesting that the Repubs tend to do more for the military and the dems less. I saw the military get downsized, budget cut, benefits taken away, and just generally mistreated during the Clinton era, then bush comes in and the military is doing great again."


Woah there LR.  The military budget went down ONE year while clinton was president. And benefits were not cut. Bush has actually been horrible for the benefits of both troops and veterans. You are the one talking about "im not going to look it up for you" but then you should look it up before you open your mouth. Cause your assumptions are not correct.

[Lord Raiden]

HA!  Last I checked Clinton gutted the military during the entire 8 years he was president, not just one.  You also have to remember that I was in the military for 3 of those years he was hacking and slashing and saw much of it first hand at both my posts.

[Reflex]

As someone who has a sister who is a Navy vet, and a brother who is currently serving in the Army, I have to disagree Raiden.  Both have said the military both in culture and management has degraded significantly since Clinton left office.  Guaranteed benefits are lower, and many projects that they felt they needed were blocked or cut, mostly due to Rumsfeld.    As for the rest of your statement, Rocky posted the military budgets over the Clinton years in another thread, as he said it only declined in one year, in every other year it rose significantly.

I think Republicans are good at lip service regarding the military.  But few it seems have been there.

[Rocky]

"HA! Last I checked Clinton gutted the military during the entire 8 years he was president, not just one. You also have to remember that I was in the military for 3 of those years he was hacking and slashing and saw much of it first hand at both my posts. "


LR instead of blowing hot air, why dont you look it up.  Tex and I posted the numbers about a week ago.  ONE year the military budget was reduced, one year out of 8.  And if you can find numbers about their benefits go for it.  You are flat out wrong, and you can keep saying it, but that doesnt make you right. We already had this debate, and the numbers came out. Go take a look, I dont expect youll actually change your mind, cause you clearly didnt even try since your last post even though you were shown to be wrong.

[Lord Raiden]

Link me.  I didn't try because I haven't had the time to go look for it.

PS: I never said I wouldn't change my mind if new information was presented that could be verified.  I simply stated that I haven't seen anything so far to contradict what I already know.

[Rocky]

Arent you the one that just in this thread said

"(if you can't look it up yourselves, I'm most certainly not going to do the work for you)"


And now you ask me to find something for you? Ironic. But I have an MBA final tonight. So I gues Ill pass your words back at you  for now

[Babar]

..............Wow.

No, LR, Clinton did not "gut" the military the whole 8 years he was office. The budget went down one year out of eight. It's in a thread that's still on the front page of the Politics forum, that you could find in about 30 seconds with the Advanced Search tool.

[Rocky]

It is true Clinton tried to make the military more efficient. If youll remember he actually balanced the budget as well. And worked towards peace throughout most the world. The lac kof military conflict kept his budgets manageble and allowed for our nation to get back into the black and actually pay down some debt.  Novel idea I thought, oh yea, it was a conservative idea. Where did they go?

I found some numbers and it does look like more than one year. But only 1 out of the last 6 years he was president. The first two it looked like he took what the first Bush had suggested the budgets be.  So there, I was slightly wrong.  But I think the nubmers still prove your first post was incorrect. When Clinton left office the military budget was higher than it was when he went in. Also veterans were fully funded, which is not the case now.

[Reflex]

I'll point out that in 92-93 the budget HAD to be lower than in 90/91 just because we weren't at war in Iraq anymore.  When comparing the earlier years you'd have to eliminate war specific funding from previous years to have an apples to apples comparison.

[Lord Raiden]

Babar:  Which thread?  I tried all the things I could think of that'd bring up budgets and the military.

Rocky: Well, I'll admit that he did work towards peace.  That's one big plus he had.  One of the few, but hey, it's one that counts.  And the balanced budget is another I'll agree with.  But as for not making war, there were a bunch of times he should have stuck to his guns.  Of course, there's a bunch of times Bush should have just shut up and walked away, both of them.  So I guess we're kinda even on both sides.

I found some numbers and it does look like more than one year. But only 1 out of the last 6 years he was president. The first two it looked like he took what the first Bush had suggested the budgets be. So there, I was slightly wrong. But I think the nubmers still prove your first post was incorrect. When Clinton left office the military budget was higher than it was when he went in. Also veterans were fully funded, which is not the case now.

Well, if that's true, then all the hacking, slashing, and budget crunching I went through was a leftover from the previous presidency.  I would have been out by the time the budget went back up.

While I do admit that Clinton has some good points to him, much of my experience with him comes from all the times when he was in control and I was getting burned in one way or another.  I guess I just ended up being in the wrong places at the wrong times during his presidency.  Then his scandles didn't help his image with me any either.  Not that bush is a shining golden egg either.  lol.