Originally posted by: Reflex
Yes, I called myself the same thing I've called myself for nearly five years on this board. A Conservative Libertarian. Your apparantly the only person here who was not able to glean that from my conversations without me spelling out what a Libertarian is.
Sorry Reflex. Not only have you only called yourself a Conservative in one post and only a Libertarian in another never linking the two, you dodged the question 5 times when I asked you. Pretending you didn't is nothing more than another false statement. If it was so easy for you to admit you shouldn't have had a problem declaring it the first time.
Once again, 'conservative' and 'libertarian' are not mutually exclusive, there is no 'conservative party' in the US and you do not have to belong to a party at all to be a conservative. My father is about as conservative as they come, he'd make you Texans look like flaming lefty's, but he does not belong to the Republican or Libertarian parties, he considers them to be too 'liberal' for him. Its all a matter of perspective.
How many times do I have to say this before you get it? Conservatives have thoughts and values that libertarians do NOT have. You are so wrapped up in whether or not a political party exists for the group and base that on whether or not that can have their own viewpoints, you continue to overlook that each group has its own values and judgments. Stop pretending that this has some political party meaning and simply look at the different groups and what they believe. It looks far more like another dodge than anything else. I already said that conservatives and libertarians share some
common traits but they do NOT share all traits. I've said this twice before. Try reading it this time.
HAHAHA Here comes that pathetic label once again when you can't come to grips with your own statements. So sadly predictable.
I am merely pointing out that there is circumstantial evidence, much as there was with Nixon and LBJ.
That is a LIE. You never said it was circumstantial evidence. You listed it as a point to prove Bush's fascism.
Just another lie you have been caught making...again.
But please, dare me to produce the quotes where you made these absolute statements and get your tennis shoes laced up.
Short of reading his diary its impossible to prove he knew anything conclusively, just as its impossible to prove he did not. Are you a mind reader who can prove he knew nothing he shouldn't have? When his claims turn out false repeatedly over a five year peroid its reasonable to begin to have doubts about what he is saying, in my opinion.
You NEVER said you had doubts. You made absolute statements that he was a liar. And anyone looking at the wiretap story knows there are defenses on both sides. You NEVER said anything like it was possible, you made absolute statements.
Go ahead and deny it. Please. I have your direct quotes ready.
This is what you always try to do when you are loosing. You either run, use a label, or in this case as with many others, try and reinvent what you originally said into something that fits your case better.
Well too bad. Your absolute quotes speak for themselves.
This does not make one a liberal unless you would qualify those Green's and Democrats who lost faith in Clinton over his term to be 'conservatives' because they felt he wasn't telling them the whole truth due to some things not turning out like he said.
It absolutely shows you have serious liberal leanings since you not only spout their positions on these topics, you have the exact same bias towards accusations you assume
are correct against Bush and Republican leaders even though the evidence is NOT there.
Actually, my largest issue with the Bush administration is that its extremely liberal but has dressed itself in the rhetoric of conservatism. They have expanded nationalized health care(prescription drug benefits, enhanced Medicaid/medicare), stripped states of their rights through various measures(RealID for instance), attempted to coerce the federal and state judiciary into becoming activist in nature regardless of the law(Terry Schiavo case), Invaded personal privacy of the citizens in the name of 'security'(Patriot Act), overspent their means by record amounts, centralized control of education(whatever happened to school vouchers and local control???) and become world police much like Clinton in Bosnia and Haiti. Bush and the others think that as long as they give a few kind words to Pat Robertson and his ilk, talk up the military while cutting veterans benefits and occasionally bash gays that it covers up the fact that they are one of the most liberal administrations we've had since Kennedy. And sadly, it seems to have fooled the Republican base quite well. Like tossing a cheap coat of paint on an old car before you sell it to an unwitting customer.
Dodge dodge dodge. Try addressing the specific points you made earlier.
But let's be very clear on many of the points you try to mask what you said before since you are afraid to answer them directly.
In the Terry Shievo case, that was not Bush but Frist. He took the action. And it was on the right to life issue, clearly a conservative one. Both Bush and Frist said this. Your reinterpretation not withstanding. And the Patriot act as you have brought up for the 200th time was designed to protect us from terrorism which true conservatives are willing to part with very few individual rights taken away from us in order to be more secure from terrorism. Funny how your arguments on this are also the same arguments liberals use.
More liberal tendencies come out with the always amusing "bashing gays" liberal accusation. How has Bush done this? Oh yes, you were attacking another conservative.
Funny how you look over the massive tax breaks. Were you for these? If not, you not only go against conservatives but libertarians as well.
How about gay marriage? That has been on the forefront. What is your stance there?
Or invading Iraq in the first place? Were you against that from the beginning? Careful, I have your original postings.
How about Christmas? Do you believe Christmas has been under the attack of the ACLU?
How about affirmative action? Are you for or against that?
See you like to cherry pick your accusations but so far, nothing you have pointed out isn't a libertarian position.
Where are you conservative positions that do NOT coincide with libertarian positions?
Note: This is the second time I have asked this of you.
I have not seen much in the way of 'conservatism' among those in power.
Gay Marriage Ban
Terry (right to life)
The War on Terrorism
These are conservative principles that have been fought by conservatives including Bush and leading Republicans. Funny how you only stick to what Libertarians share in common with Conservatives and never go beyond that.
Why should I not be suspicious of those who pander to conservative emotional issues but ignore the conservative ideals for running a government?
Suspicion and making absolute statements are two VERY different things. What you claim you are doing now is not what you posted. You can't rewrite your own history.
Libertarian values are conservative in nature. They are based on the ideals and writings of the founding fathers of this country, hence why I quote them so often(as well as correct common misconceptions). You cannot really get more conservative than the founding fathers in terms of your political ideologies.
Another dodge. I love it. Still think you can hide behind this?
No, Republicans believe in many things that Libertarian's do not. Many things are debated among Conservatives, as Conservatism itself is relative to a person's frame of reference(our idea of Conservatism is not the same as Germany's for instance, or even California's). This does not mean that the Republican definition of Conservatism is any more correct than the Libertarian definition, and while they have differences the core values are still very similiar.
That's right. Conservatives do have core values which you still run away from answering
Just to name a few....
They are against overall:
The elimination of religion from schools
They are for:
A Traditional America
More Conservative Judges
Now once again, these are values NOT in Libertarian thinking. If you truly believe you are a Conservative outside the common traits shared by Libertarians, then lets see your positions on these topics.
And you must do your research before posting ignorantly about conservatives, liberals, republicans, democrats and libertarians. You had an obvious misconception, and your attitude justified my approach.
Your ignorance is your belief that you can pretend to be conservative and never have a value that isn't shared by Libertarian views.
I hope you finally get down to quoting me where I actually asked you specific questions instead of replying to something I said to someone else..
You rarely make points, you paraphrase other people and then go "yes or no?" as though thats making a point or even representing that person correctly. If you have a point, make it, we're still waiting.
Run run run away! LOL Yes. I misrepresent you so often you can't even respond or defend yourself on points you have made. Damn I'm good
This paragraph made little sense, however I'll attempt to address what I think you are asking. My values basically go as follows: What would Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, John Adams and Ben Franklin think about a given situation? WHy would they feel that way? What can I read about their own lives and writings that would shed light on it? I believe they had a very specific ideal for both this nation and humanity at large. I test every issue of law in my mind against the Constitution. If it does not pass muster, it is not Conservative by definition as it attempts to change the foundations the nation was laid upon. It also is an insult to the founders, an implication that we are smarter than they could have been when they designed what is more or less a system of self-governance.
HAHAHAHAHA I knew you wouldn't do it. Instead of being a man and listing your values you once again retreat to pretending to do what our founding fathers would do.
So, using your evading logic, lets take just a few conservative topics
Gay Marriage. Do you think the founding fathers given the time they lived in, would be for it?
How about Taxes? Would they be for them?
How about prayer in school? Think they would be against that?
This is your cowardly attempt not to answer the question directly hiding behind men who lived over 200 years ago instead of being man enough to give your opinion on modern issues. How pathetic. Is the starch in your shirt the only thing keeping you upright? Grow a backbone for once and quit hiding behind men who have been dead for over 200 years and answer current even questions.
I believe in their ideals and their foundation, and I seek to both preserve it and spread it to other nations.
Yet in all your beliefs you can't answer simple current event questions. Pathetic but predictable.
If it looks like a fish, if it smells like a fish, if it swims like a fish....it is probably a fish. At a certain point it is irrelevant whether or not Bush is lying, the simple fact is that he is wrong. A lot. Not a president I can have confidence in.
Looks like a liberal, smells, like a liberal, takes the same positions and assumptions as a liberal.... it is probably a liberal.
And if it is irrelevant that Bush is lying, why did you accuse him of it?
I smell another dodge coming.
Both. Expecting the president to uphold the values his party runs on seems a reasonable expectation.
LOL So you admit you assume
a conservative president is lying without evidence. That is the liberal bias shining through once again.
A long way towards what? Making you feel better about yourself?
LOL It goes a long way to you actually being honest about the positions you take.
The fact that you dodged the very questions of issues beyond what conservatives and libertarians share makes my point for me.
You simply don't have the backbone to put your beliefs out there because you know it wont hold up to the label you have given yourself.
99% of the people here have no problem admitting and being honest about their political leanings and points of view on specific subjects.
Only you run from specific questions designed to shed some light on your political biasness.
Lets see if you run away again from these specific points.