Cost/necessity of the F-22A Raptor

[Babar]

After pilots in India's air force proved unexpectedly adept at shooting down their U.S. Air Force opponents in war games in February 2004 and again this past November, generals, journalists, and lobbyists seized on these "Cope India" exercises as proof that America's decades long dominance of the air was fraying. But beneath the hype, returning U.S. F-15 Eagle and F-16 Falcon pilots grumbled that unrealistic scenarios in the games had kept them from using their best pilots.

Aviation experts agreed with the pilots. "It was an extremely dirty pool," said one congressional staffer. The Air Force "held a very classified exercise and then leaked the findings that supported their case."

That would be the case for buying more of the F-22A Raptor, the Air Force's prized new fighter . . . (which) has been politically hamstrung by its high cost: $345 million a plane . . . .

(National Journal article, January 14, 2006)

To put that in perspective, Air Force One cost about $20 million less per plane.

[Babar]

Cost/necessity of the F-22A Raptor

[Texmaster]

Originally posted by: Babar

After pilots in India's air force proved unexpectedly adept at shooting down their U.S. Air Force opponents in war games in February 2004 and again this past November, generals, journalists, and lobbyists seized on these "Cope India" exercises as proof that America's decades long dominance of the air was fraying. But beneath the hype, returning U.S. F-15 Eagle and F-16 Falcon pilots grumbled that unrealistic scenarios in the games had kept them from using their best pilots.



Aviation experts agreed with the pilots. "It was an extremely dirty pool," said one congressional staffer. The Air Force "held a very classified exercise and then leaked the findings that supported their case."



That would be the case for buying more of the F-22A Raptor, the Air Force's prized new fighter . . . (which) has been politically hamstrung by its high cost: $345 million a plane . . . .



(National Journal article, January 14, 2006)



To put that in perspective, Air Force One cost about $20 million less per plane.

Interesting.   You think the war games were rigged to emphasize the building of this new warplane?

It could be, there are rats everywhere.

[Lord Raiden]

lol.  Real life vs wargames are two whole different things.  The Iraqi airforce was awesome on paper and in wargames, but got p0wn'd hardcore when the real fighting began.  I think this is a two sided political ploy.  The US is doing it to warrent their new playtoy, and India is joining in to raise themselves up a notch against the US.

[Reflex]

India is one of our allies.  I don't think it was anything more to them than a good excuse to test themselves against the world's best.  They would have participated regardless of the ground rules I'd wager.

[Babar]

India was using Russian made Sukhoi Su-30 planes, which had the Russian electronics removed and replaced with home-grown Indian electronics and purchased U.S. electronics.

Operationally, the JSF or F-35 multipurpose fighter meets the need that was outlined for the creation of the F-22A. There have been six U.S. air superiority fighters shot down since the 1991 Gulf War, and none of those six were shot down by planes. All were shot down by surface to air missiles. The F-22A was designed to have a much lower radar signature and therefore have increased survivability and invisibility.

The JSF has the same stealth capability, and only costs $43 million for the USAF variety and $50 million for the Navy variant.

Plus we're purchasing about 3,000 of them...

So what's the use of only 180 F-22As at $345 million a pop???

[crobs808]

wait, stop right here...this is like someone who only speaks ebonics having a debate on proper english.

nobody registered on this forum knows 1% of the mechanics, makeup, technology, or what else goes into creating military aircraft, so please, don't make me laugh, and stop discussing things none of us know anything about.

this isn't like choosing the cheaper brand of toilet-paper at the grocery store guys, these are million-moving-part machines with vastly different hardware and computer software

please, please.  this thread is pointless.  leave his to the engineers who get paid 7 digits a year, none of which post here.

~ Connor

[mikevalla]

I think it is very possible that the games were sleighted in India's favor to show possible weak points in the US Air Force, myself.  However, that doesn't neccesitate the need to buy en force some very expensive planes, just to counter a 'possible' threat to future pilots.  Tactics can be changed, and different equipment used on exisiting planes to ensure the destruction of SAM sites, for instance, thus eliminating a major threat to jets.

In the real world, the Air force never works alone, after all.

[Rocky]

" wait, stop right here...this is like someone who only speaks ebonics having a debate on proper english.

nobody registered on this forum knows 1% of the mechanics, makeup, technology, or what else goes into creating military aircraft, so please, don't make me laugh, and stop discussing things none of us know anything about.

this isn't like choosing the cheaper brand of toilet-paper at the grocery store guys, these are million-moving-part machines with vastly different hardware and computer software"


Its like inteligent design, god must make these planes....

And crobs, dont disqualify everyone here just because you feel disqualified yourself.

[Reflex]

Honestly they need to compare the JSF to the F-22A and see which is better.  Even if the F22A is slightly superior, does that justify the massive cost difference?

Personally I think the automated drones(Predator) are the future of air combat.  Pilots in the air is just to satisfy the Top Gun junkies, but the fact is that drones can be remotely controlled like a video game and can do maneuvers no human pilot can accomplish due to G forces.  The largest limitation in modern combat plane design is how to design it in such a way that the pilot won't get killed while harnessing all that power.  Drones eliminate that issue completely...

[lightprocess]

I feel like this is tantamount to the computer hardware industry; you get a 15% performance increase for 100% more monies.

[crobs808]

Originally posted by: Rocky
And crobs, dont disqualify everyone here just because you feel disqualified yourself.

you are unqualifed, Relfex is unqualified, Babar is unqualified, I am unqualified...don't try to boost your ego by stating something bad about someone else.  Most of us learn to stop that in the 1st grade.  For once Rocky try not trying to be the ruler of everything, and just accept limitations.  You probably do not know what "humble" means, but try it out for once.  You do NOT know anything about the construction and the technical differences about these two aircrafts other than the pictures you see in google image search, so please...threads like this are pointless in even being opened, because we have no idea as civilians what machine is better suited for our military

~ Connor

[Rocky]

Im glad you know everyones qualifications...  Since you are self proclaimed unqualified, why do you keep posting in this thread?  In another thread you asked for good debate. Good debate doesnt come from TROLLS crobs, and since you have deemed yourself unqualified to talk about this subject, thats what you are.  Go out and do some research, or attend some lectures on the subject you are posting in and come back and discuss.  Cause as you may realize, not everyone is an expert, but you dont have to be an expert to make good decisions.

Quick name a member of the OMB or a member of congress who is a "engineers who get paid 7 digits a year"

[Reflex]

I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was so unqualified.  Having a brother in the Army, sister in the Navy, and a close friend in Air Force Intelligence I guess leaves me unqualified.  They all have had interesting and *informed* things to say about the military and its needs, as well as the politians who attempt to ride their glory without risking thier own necks...

[mikevalla]

So crobs, since you are 100% informed on computers, tell me- how exactly does a bunch of 1's and 0's transform itself in to colored images on your screen?

Ignorance is bliss, it seems.

[Babar]

Honestly they need to compare the JSF to the F-22A and see which is better. Even if the F22A is slightly superior, does that justify the massive cost difference?

Exactly what Im getting at Reflex.

[Intuit]

The military organizers likely wanted the disadvantages and when things went less than satisfactory, would use this as apart of the case to say that we need to spend for better equipment.  

As far as the $345/plane... I hope that includes maintainence costs.  

As another example, (and I know Crobs808 hates these) there was this hospital that had two tiers for patients.  The second level of the hospital was for the privledged and they received first priority on all expendatures medicines etcetera.  The lower floor was for those considered to be "third class" citizens and most of the cost expendatures requested for equipment medicines etcetera was rarely ever approved and so they basically went without.  A keen doctor who had disdain for these conditions, would always inflate the expendatures needed for the "first class" citizens.  He would report that he need 300 needles full of morphine when they only needed 250 or so.  He would say machines failed even though they were fine.  Though risking his career and possibility of being prosecuted, he then secretly smuggled the extra equipment down to the lower level to help treat the "third class" citizens.

[Quartz]

The USAF is well used to getting its backside kicked by its allies. Just look at the performance of its planes against the Harrier in tests shortly before the Falklands War.

As for the aerospace expertise of the posters in this thread, those who know anything definitely aren't going to admit it!