TIME: US Marines Massacre Iraqi Civilians

[Timster]

Just look at those guys from vietnam, after they got home they werent the same anymore and most against the war they fought since they only lost things inside and arround them.

The one thing they've learned well is that instead of sending troops directly home, they go through a "decompression" period where they re-learn how to act in a non-war zone, and how to respond to questions and viewpoints expressed to them by other people.  On the documentary series Off To War one of the national guardsmen, a police officer, was concerned how he was going to handle the first time he does a traffic stop on an Arabic driver when he gets home.

[VorLonUK]

Obviously this is an emotive subject, but the bottom line as I see it is, regardless of the rights or wrongs for going into Iraq are or were, is that we (the coalition) should be seen to be whiter than white.

If we were repelling the enemy at our borders by all means neccessary then the whole debate may well be different. We have gone to a sovereign country and done our bidding in the name initially of "Liberation". Unfortunately over the continued months this "Liberation" has been watered down to "War" and now I'm not sure what it's called. Either way we should be transparent and at the very least be seen to be doing the right thing.  This is what makes the West great and shows democracy in a decent light.

[Timster]

Either way we should be transparent and at the very least be seen to be doing the right thing. This is what makes the West great and shows democracy in a decent light.

That's the best to wish for, but we should also understand that during intense situations, proper decision making is going to be impaired.  I don't believe the Marines' actions were intentional.  A mistake followed by a series of more mistakes.

After being fired upon, it sounds like the Marines entered the homes while being hot under the collar and scared at the same time, and something happened, and someone panicked and shot, which led to alot more shooting and a cover up.

I'd like to hear the full story after the NCIS gets done.

[Texmaster]

Originally posted by: Rocky

"If you have "complete evidence" WHERE IS IT?"



You've all seen the pictures, you cant really be denying it happened? And if it happened once, theres nothing that says it cant happen again. I woudlnt be so quick to dismiss this article base on your willy nilly bias, its not some new s start up were talking about.

Really Rocky.   So you have seen pictures of someone higher than the general in charge of the prison that prove the acceptance of abuse went higher than her?

I think we would all like to see that lol

Here's a hint Rocky.   The abu graib pictures do NOT prove Bush or anyone above the general in charge knew about the abuse.   That is all in your biased head.

[Reflex]

Your position on this subject is sickenly clear. You care more about the rights of a child rapist than defending the child who was raped.

This is the crux of it.  You simply do not get my position.  My position is that I believe in the rights of EVERYONE regardless of who or what they are or what they have done.  That is what this country was founded upon.  That is what my religion is based on.  That is how I live my life.  And that is what I expect from my society.

In this nation even monsters have rights.  The first of which is the right to a fair trial by their peers and a just sentencing.  I don't always agree with those sentences, but then I am not in that courtroom and the only evidence I get to see is what the media decides they would like to inflame the populace with.  Therefore I see four choices: 1) Go into law and become part of that process, 2) go into politics and become a lawmaker, 3) Do nothing, like most of the population or 4) rant hysterically on forums about how unjust the world is because of certain cherry picked cases and bash anyone else who does not adopt my personal level of extremism.  I am doing one of those four currently, and its neither of the last two options.  

[Rocky]

Originally posted by: Texmaster

Originally posted by: Rocky

"If you have "complete evidence" WHERE IS IT?"

You've all seen the pictures, you cant really be denying it happened? And if it happened once, theres nothing that says it cant happen again. I woudlnt be so quick to dismiss this article base on your willy nilly bias, its not some new s start up were talking about.

Really Rocky.   So you have seen pictures of someone higher than the general in charge of the prison that prove the acceptance of abuse went higher than her?

There are pictures, they have been posted here. If you ahvent seen the host of other pictures maybe you should do some searchings. Things like that dont just happen for an hour on one day when someoen was bored. It was a long on going thing.  The military has a hiearchy which im sure you are aware of, at some point someone had to turn the other way to these actions, and if you really think the people who ended up being punished were the only ones who witnessed the actions you ahve got to be kidding me.  

Originally posted by: Texmaster
Here's a hint Rocky.   The abu graib pictures do NOT prove Bush or anyone above the general in charge knew about the abuse.   That is all in your biased head.

Making up claims again texmaster that you think you can actually argue against?  Strawman. Let me know where I said Bush or a general had anything to do with it, otherwise try arguing within the scope of what were talking about instead of just making things up as usual.

[ric]

Originally posted by: Reflex

Your position on this subject is sickenly clear. You care more about the rights of a child rapist than defending the child who was raped.

This is the crux of it.  You simply do not get my position.  My position is that I believe in the rights of EVERYONE regardless of who or what they are or what they have done.  That is what this country was founded upon.  That is what my religion is based on.  That is how I live my life.  And that is what I expect from my society.



In this nation even monsters have rights.  The first of which is the right to a fair trial by their peers and a just sentencing.  I don't always agree with those sentences, but then I am not in that courtroom and the only evidence I get to see is what the media decides they would like to inflame the populace with.  Therefore I see four choices: 1) Go into law and become part of that process, 2) go into politics and become a lawmaker, 3) Do nothing, like most of the population or 4) rant hysterically on forums about how unjust the world is because of certain cherry picked cases and bash anyone else who does not adopt my personal level of extremism.  I am doing one of those four currently, and its neither of the last two options.  

You forgot number 5.... failure or refusal to recognize or submit to the authority

Rocky told you explicitly to back off and you haven't. It shows your disdain towards Rocky's rules and regulations

You want others to conform to the rules of these forums and yet you do whatever you want. Are you above the rules and regulations???

Lead by example, Mod

[Rocky]

Ric- thanks for pointing it out. I deleted Texmasters posts after he did not listen, I wouldve Reflexes too but it looked as though he was merely defending himself from tex's now deleted post.  No more talk on the matter will be tolerated.

[Texmaster]

Originally posted by: VorLonUK

Obviously this is an emotive subject, but the bottom line as I see it is, regardless of the rights or wrongs for going into Iraq are or were, is that we (the coalition) should be seen to be whiter than white.

But that also means the press needs to be responsible and not overblow negatives and also actually report the positive news.

If all a press covers is the negative then of course public opinion will change.

For example, I dont know about you in the UK, but I have not seen one report by any in the mainstream media over here talking about the number of schools, businesses, and power back online.

No mention of any soldiers who received medals for valor or anything of the sort.

One commentator granted right wing went on NBC and absolutely destroyed the obvious left wing spin about Iraq by charging reporters don't do anything more in Iraq than report explosions and do it all from their hotels.   She actually went with US soldiers and Iraqi soldiers and somehow lived to tell the tale.

NBCs response has been an unending attack of her and a defense of their own reporting without challenging their own coverage or analyzing their stories.

That kind of negativity will certainly shape a public's opinion on the war.

This new story is just as dangerous.   Already people here on the left embrace this story never mind its coming from one source with no evidence to cooroborate it.     This reminds me of the story about the British soldiers on tape hitting Iraqi youths but what they didn't tell you was that these same kids were throwing grenades at the soliders before the camera pictures.   That kind of detail being left out demonstrates in my mind a direct undermining of the truth by a press that hates Bush and the war so much they allow it to shape their media coverage to reflect their hatred.

[Texmaster]

Originally posted by: Rocky

There are pictures, they have been posted here.

PICTURES OF WHAT ROCKY?

No one is denying the abuses.  What I am challenging you to prove is your allogation that you have PROOF this went higher than the general in charge.

Stay on point.

Where is your PROOF that is went higher than the general?

Making up claims again texmaster that you think you can actually argue against?  Strawman. Let me know where I said Bush or a general had anything to do with it, otherwise try arguing within the scope of what were talking about instead of just making things up as usual.

Rocky, if you didn't even know that the general in charge of the prison was diciplined for the incident, you clearly have a severe lack of knowledge on the subject and its just another example of letting your blind hatred overcome any lack of factual evidence that this went higher than her.

[Texmaster]

Originally posted by: Rocky

Ric- thanks for pointing it out. I deleted Texmasters posts after he did not listen, I wouldve Reflexes too but it looked as though he was merely defending himself from tex's now deleted post.  No more talk on the matter will be tolerated.

Nice Rocky.   I adressed the points Reflex brought up blowing away his pathetic denial and it took a long time to do it  and you deleted it yet somehow you managed to let Reflex's posting stand.

I see mods stick together, espeically when both of you are against your opponent.

This is nothing more than selective sensorship.

[Rocky]

Thanks Texmaster for admiting a general was disciplined.  Do you know how he was disciplined to?  For something that has cost Americans to doubt our soldiers actions in a time of war. For something that turned nations against us and has made us the punchline in the international community?  Do you know how he was disciplined or is that just some defense rhetoric you picked up?

Now on to the real question.  How does a general know about something so cruel, so costly to our country and yet no one else has any acknowledgement of the situation except one or two low level officials?  You really think it was that hidden?

[Rocky]

I warned you tex, and you didnt listen. I didnt really pay attention to who got the last laugh.  If you had your PMs on I would do it that way, but youd rather everything be public, so be it.  I didnt appreciate your lack of caring of the warning.

[Texmaster]

Originally posted by: Rocky

Thanks Texmaster for admiting a general was disciplined.  Do you know how he was disciplined to?  

ROFLOL!!!!  Rocky, the general was a WOMAN.   LOL!!!!  Talk about clueless.

For something that has cost Americans to doubt our soldiers actions in a time of war. For something that turned nations against us and has made us the punchline in the international community?  Do you know how he was disciplined or is that just some defense rhetoric you picked up?

Only if you equate the entire military with these few soliders, something the media did quite well.

Now on to the real question.  How does a general know about something so cruel, so costly to our country and yet no one else has any acknowledgement of the situation except one or two low level officials?  You really think it was that hidden?

So you still have no evidnece to support your biased conspiracy theories.

Got it Rocky.   Nice to see some things never change.

[Rocky]

Nice to see you didnt have an answer to anything I posted, and all you did was personally attack my spelling errors.  Please dont bother posting if all you plan to do is attack other members.

[Texmaster]

Originally posted by: Rocky

Nice to see you didnt have an answer to anything I posted, and all you did was personally attack my spelling errors.  Please dont bother posting if all you plan to do is attack other members.

That is a lie.   I NEVER attacked your spelling.  He and she are two completely different pro nouns.

But what is the point?   You just deleted another one of my posts.


You win Rocky.   I cant keep up with posts being deleted

[Rocky]

I do win, Im a mod that warned you and you broke the warning so I deleted your post.  Feel free to PM me if you wish to discuss it further.

[Texmaster]

Originally posted by: Rocky

I do win, Im a mod that warned you and you broke the warning so I deleted your post.  Feel free to PM me if you wish to discuss it further.

You warned TWO PEOPLE.   One ONE got their postings deleted.

And you deleted two of my postings.

There is no point in debate when a mod abuses his power for political gain.

[Rocky]

You broke the warning first texmaster, I have sinced messaged reflex.  You have blocked my PMs so I couldnt show you the same respect.  Feel free to turn on PMs and Id be happy to show you the same concern.

For the sake of everyone else, Im just going to lock this thread, it has boiled down to "he" versus "she"....

[Texmaster]

Originally posted by: Rocky

You broke the warning first texmaster, I have sinced messaged reflex.  You have blocked my PMs so I couldnt show you the same respect.  Feel free to turn on PMs and Id be happy to show you the same concern.

And of course we only have your word on that.  

We both broke the "warning"   Only one person's posts were deleted.

Those are the facts.