Most Brits Support BNP Policies to Limit Immigration

[Mefistofeles]

According to this article in the Daily Mail most Brits back BNP Policies:

BNP Article Link

For those you who don't know the British Nationalist Party is a political party founded around the theme of restricting non white immigration into the United Kingdom.

[Overkill]

I doesn't surprise me. It's about time the British, sorry English, were honest and admitted that underneath we are a pretty nasty racist bunch. It's funny that the Daily Mail, a right wing, muck stirring rag, 'suddenly' choose to submit a poll giving those results. Although in fairness to them it was an issue flagged up by a govt minister.

However, they should give themselves a good pat themselves on the back. It's largely due to hate filled papers like the Mail that the English have such a jaundiced view of immigrants.

[hydran]

...er don't believe what the papers say, especially that one!  It's like the "Fox News" of newspapers.

[Paul Howland]

It’s about time the British, sorry English, were honest and admitted that underneath we are a pretty nasty racist bunch

Speak for yourself.  On the whole I think the Brits are a pretty decent bunch - far more tolerant of immigrants than many of their continental neighbours, or some parts of the US.  There'll always be ignorant tossers in any community, but please don't tar us all with that brush.

Also read the small print in the article - it's not as bad as the headline.  Most people don't want to be associated with the BNP, and "Some 68 per cent refused to support the stance that non-white British citizens are inherently less British than white people" while "52 per cent were opposed to encouraging immigrants and their families to leave Britain."  There can be valid reasons for wanting to limit immigration without being racist.  Is the US Green Card system racist for not allowing everyone into the country?  Of course not.  The UK is an overcrowded island, with an already overloaded health service and insufficient housing.  It's natural that people will start wanting to limit the number of immigrants under these situations.  It doesn't follow that this is for racist reasons.

[Clipperjay]

Mef I'm afraid most of us do feel these scumbags are getting more power but in the UK majority and I mean majority are decent folks.
The classical type of NF or BNP are thugs and no one in there right mind takes them seriously. Some poor areas with high racial tension happen, but the Union Jack in my eyes is one of Pride and Glory not anything else.
This immigration problem as for the recent hiccups on letting some dangerous ones out that should have been deported has caused these Fascists to rally now and then, but we as a nation would beat the crap out of them if they came to my backyard. Our nation is diverse compared to the 70's and mid eighties.  

The ones that in the government and keep quite are the scary ones that support these groups in the background. This is the concern not the thug with a Nazi sticker on his head but the so called gentleman that shakes your hand and smiles with a hatred of immigrants are the ones that control thugs for there own manipulation.
Surprisingly we as a nation will not let freedom to express or any constitutional rights get in the way of blatant racism. It just doesn’t get tolerated.

[iamjack]

I doesn't surprise me. It's about time the British, sorry English, were honest and admitted that underneath we are a pretty nasty racist bunch. It's funny that the Daily Mail, a right wing, muck stirring rag, 'suddenly' choose to submit a poll giving those results. Although in fairness to them it was an issue flagged up by a govt minister.

However, they should give themselves a good pat themselves on the back. It's largely due to hate filled papers like the Mail that the English have such a jaundiced view of immigrants.

Hey Overkill, Ive said it before on these forums though - the rise in popularity of the BNP over the past few years can only be blamed on the government.  Theres been no discussion on the effects of mass immigration on the existing population (apart from the supposed positive effects on the economy) and yet the negatives have just started to effect the governments previous electoral core more than any other group - the urban working class.  Now to cap it off the news that 1000 convicted foreign felons (rapists, murderers, peadophiles and violent offenders) have just been let out into society despite recommendations to deport them after their sentences...  I'll  bet the jackboots and skinheads brigade are laughing - you just can't pay for that kind of knee-jerk-response propoganda!

P.s. As a nation we're mean, but I wouldnt say nasty.  Most of the people questioned responded with economic, rather than social/racist reasons for their [misguided] choice to vote for the BNP.  Isnt it time that this government and its (now) middle-class electoral support reviewed the smokescreen on immigration that it itself has created, before the BNP garners any more support?

[iamjack]

It’s about time the British, sorry English, were honest and admitted that underneath we are a pretty nasty racist bunch

Speak for yourself.  On the whole I think the Brits are a pretty decent bunch - far more tolerant of immigrants than many of their continental neighbours, or some parts of the US.  There'll always be ignorant tossers in any community, but please don't tar us all with that brush.

Also read the small print in the article - it's not as bad as the headline.  Most people don't want to be associated with the BNP, and "Some 68 per cent refused to support the stance that non-white British citizens are inherently less British than white people" while "52 per cent were opposed to encouraging immigrants and their families to leave Britain."  There can be valid reasons for wanting to limit immigration without being racist.  Is the US Green Card system racist for not allowing everyone into the country?  Of course not.  The UK is an overcrowded island, with an already overloaded health service and insufficient housing.  It's natural that people will start wanting to limit the number of immigrants under these situations.  It doesn't follow that this is for racist reasons.

Good points.

[Clipperjay]

Go and watch CRASH the movie then come back to us MEF?

[Overkill]

It’s about time the British, sorry English, were honest and admitted that underneath we are a pretty nasty racist bunch

Speak for yourself.  On the whole I think the Brits are a pretty decent bunch - far more tolerant of immigrants than many of their continental neighbours, or some parts of the US.  There'll always be ignorant tossers in any community, but please don't tar us all with that brush.

Also read the small print in the article - it's not as bad as the headline.  Most people don't want to be associated with the BNP, and "Some 68 per cent refused to support the stance that non-white British citizens are inherently less British than white people" while "52 per cent were opposed to encouraging immigrants and their families to leave Britain."  There can be valid reasons for wanting to limit immigration without being racist.  Is the US Green Card system racist for not allowing everyone into the country?  Of course not.  The UK is an overcrowded island, with an already overloaded health service and insufficient housing.  It's natural that people will start wanting to limit the number of immigrants under these situations.  It doesn't follow that this is for racist reasons.

I'm afraid the facts don't bear that out. We always have this delusion that 'on the whole we are a decent bunch', but we aren't. People don't want to be associated with the BNP when questioned, but get them on their own, down the pub, and a whole different animal emerges. Tolerant of immigrants? Since when? Try reading the experiences of West Indians, Asians, and Africans. Then compare it to that of white Africans returning to Europe and the UK in particular, or to Americans who, according to the last census, are one of our biggest immigrant blocks. As for the latter questions, once the surveyer let the 'cat out of the bag' there is no way a good conservative English person (bar a sun reader) would brazenly go on slagging off immigrants.  

The comparison is damning and telling. The White immigrants experience is nearly always, regardless of social standing, 100% better. They get jobs easier, they can live safely in non ghettoised areas, and are never questioned about their 'Britishness'.

Over the years, and after plenty of reading around the subject, that survey was no surprise. It is naive to go on thinking that we are 'immigrant friendly'. We are - if they are rich and white.

The overcrowded bit is nonsense too. Our population is currently stablised at the 60 million mark. This is only 3 million more than censuses carried out 30 years ago. Our birth rate has falled to just 1.5, our number of unfilled jobs over 500,000. Our population is becoming old and top heavy. If our people do not reproduce, where is the workforce going to come from?

Our health service is overloaded by the ageing population, and that would be the case regardless of immigration levels. It is poorly managed, and over burdened with tier after tier of managers. Housing? Are you kidding? There are enough empty houses in England to house all the homeless, and any new immigrants.

Jack, the rise of the BNP has sod all to do with the govt. every time the Conservatives are out of power, 'bing', up pops immigration as an issue again. Going right back to the 19th C. The Tory media stir it up to the max, embellish like mad, generalise like crazy, and tar with impunity. And the masses lap it up. You cannot get people to 'become racist' all you do is encourage what is already there. It is also a complete misnomer that the 'sun reading lower classes' are the ones most quickly turned on to the BNP's tune. The areas they do best in the NW are white, middle class, semi rural. The areas in London are those traditionaly associated with racism. Oh sorry, people aren't racist, just 'concerned'. My ass they are. If I had a quid for every time someone shocked me with a racist remark I would be very rich indeed.

The govt has held forums (they did here in the NW) on just these issues. I went to one. All that happens is a load of middle class, 'little England' old men turn up, and start banging on about how these 'immigrants bring the area down'. All the debates on TV have ended in a similiar vien.

The fact that people pull out 'social reasons' is the same as that old line 'I'm not racist but'. They are a smokescreen for an ugly truth most people are unwilling to admit - they are racist.

Yes the news on criminals who should have been deported is Gold dust to the BNP. But why did it come out? Who was looking/digging? The same people who weren't looking when the last govt allowed up to 400,000 illegal immigrants in. Funny how that wasn't newsworthy then, but anything regarding immigrants is now.  

In some ways it'll be relief when Cameron wins the next election. At least then, when the press goes back to praising everything the govt does, covering up all their mistakes (bar the juicy sex scandals), and forgetting the 'immigrant crisis', immigrants can sleep safely again................... after all nothing will change. We need immigrant labour, Cameron knows it, and is unlikely to do anything about 'shutting up the doors'. The BNP? Forget them. As and when Cameron gets around to it, their supporters will go back to voting Tory again. After all, all it took in the 70's to get the NF vote back for the Tories was one word.

'Floods'.

[Fire Child]

These are all generalisations. You cannot boil the issue down to just racism. It is more than that.

I can see why many people support policies to limit immigration and at some point in my life, I have been an immigrant too. I do think that there needs to be *something* controlling the influx of immigrants to certain areas and there is a lesson that should have been learned in the 80s when various london burroughs started to become ghettos. When you get to situations like that its not hard to feel threatened or alarmed at the sudden change and I do not blame the locals for seeing this kind of change and objecting to it. We are after all human, and human beings are creatures of habit for good or ill. I used to live in Ramsgate on the south east coast near to a town called Cliftonville. Cliftonville in the past 10 years has become flooded with Kosovan refugees and other immigrants from eastern europe and if I were to be honest the area *has* declined partly because of it.

Immigration is a good thing (especially for economic reasons and for the cultural mixup) but when you allow it to happen uncontrolled and unchecked you can get ghetto problems like this. Its the same deal with gated communities. When given the opportunity to close yourself off, you really can lose touch with the people on the other side of the fences. You need open borders of communication between immigrant populations and local populations. Speaking the language really does help. Nothing can isolate groups of people more than not being able to talk to each other properly. Britain has had 25 years to untangle the mess it started in the 80s and it will never fully recover from it. But tolerance is growing (sometimes its hard to believe but it is).

This is happening in Dublin right now (where I currently live) and it is sad to see this country making the exact same mistakes that Britain did 25 years ago.

If you go to Dublin right now, head for the city centre and go into any shop - the people behind the counters. The people serving you food. The cleaners. They are all immigrants. Its hard to believe until you actually see it but Dublin has the second highest GDP in europe and this city has an obscene amount of money running through it right now. And I think its partly due to the uncontrolled influx of foreign workers. I mean, nearly the entire working class in this city is foreign. But because of the lack of control, the lack of organisation when it comes to allocating accomodation and issuing social security numbers - the whole thing is a mess and its going to cause trouble further down the line. I never understood why in a restaurant - all the ground staff will be chinese. Or all of the waitresses will be polish immigrants. Theres no attempt to control or disperse immigrant populations. Alot of stores have ground staff of all the same ethnic mix. Kids grow up in this city and they see black people and chinese people cleaning public toilets and this is normal for them. Its kind of shocking when you think of it like that but just come to Dublin - its normal here.

The distribution of skilled/unskilled immigrants is really skewered such that this country is accepting far too many unskilled, 1st and 2nd level eduation immigrants compared to graduate immigrants. The ratio is totally off kilter. And it creates the broad impression that foreigners clean toilets whilst Irish businessmen make the megabucks.

Some streets like Mary's Abbey have fallen into disrepair underneath all the chinese stalls and markets that have been set up. Walking through that street is like being in another country. Nobody speaks english. Half the people are trying to sell you phone cards in another language. And it irks some of the locals. It irks some of the people that lived in the area when it wasnt a complete mess. It irks me when I walk down that street because those people selling phone cards are genuinely annoying (and I am bloody half chinese myself). And it breeds resentment and thats never a good thing.

People like Salman Rushdie and Stuart Hall were drawing attention to this in the mid 80s - this kind of ghettoisation which resulted in not very much need to integrate well with the rest of the community. You can see that in Dublin right now and if you were to go to Cliftonville you would see it there too.

I myself am technically an immigrant - I am half English, Half Chinese, born in Hong Kong before the take over but have lived in England all my life and I am now living in Dublin. And even as an immigrant in this country I am appalled at the way immigration is handled here. Its a relatively new thing in Ireland because it is only in the past 10 years that Dublin has had any kind of economy at all. Before 1994, you had to leave Ireland to get a job if you were a graduate. There simply werent very many jobs available for graduate skills. Now its the other way around - people are coming from all over the world to find work in Dublin.

I tend not to have any political allignment in UK politics and the BNP has other agendas which I very much dislike. Ultimately most of the big political parties support policy which coincides with their own agenda. And often that isnt what coincides with my view of the world.

You have to be careful when you make connections with immigration control and the BNP. Theyhave their own agenda and we all have ours. I have become disillusioned and frankly, pissed off with domestic politics in the UK and Ireland and would rather have nothing to do with it, because it just brings out the worst kind of cynicism in me.

But to suggest that this sentiment is a result of racism is to miss the point. The race card was always the easiest one to play because its pretty fricking obvious. This kind of resentment happens elsewhere when race isnt an issue though.

For example, I went to university in southampton and the locals god damn hated us students. They built the largest student halls of residence in europe in between 2 council estates. First big mistake. The council estate kids regularly vandalised student property and attacked us. Some of my friends have been hurt quite badly.

But really when you look at it objectively its not hard ot see why. Students take the piss. We booze mid week. Hell, we booze all through the week. We monopolise all the pubs, clubs and bars. We get free bus passes. We get a grant from the government to study, but lets face it, the only thing the locals see is us doing with that money is getting pissed. They wont see us study because we do that on campus or in our dorms. Its not hard to see why the locals got annoyed with us stumbling home drunk and making a racket when they have to go to work the next day. And they get resentful. And it rubs off on their kids. And their kids take it out on us. And most of us still dont even know what we are doing wrong.

Substitute 'Student' with 'Immigrant.' As well as 'Pubs, Clubs and Bars' add 'Jobs' and 'Benefits' and whatever else there is. The Daily Mail is not a paper you should take seriously all of the time and their columnists are hardly racist so much as they are old fashioned and stuck in a time warp in the Thatcher years. Columnists like Peter Hitchens are simply put, brilliant comedians. I sometimes read the Daily Mail for the sh*t stirring and the comedy value alone. You should too.

But yea, I wish people wouldnt boil the whole thing down to racism when it is actually a whole lot more than that. And it is something that the government, immigrant populations and local populations have to work at. The onus isnt just on one group or the other.

[Clipperjay]

These are all generalisations. You cannot boil the issue down to just racism. It is more than that.

I can see why many people support policies to limit immigration and at some point in my life, I have been an immigrant too. I do think that there needs to be *something* controlling the influx of immigrants to certain areas and there is a lesson that should have been learned in the 80s when various london burroughs started to become ghettos. When you get to situations like that its not hard to feel threatened or alarmed at the sudden change and I do not blame the locals for seeing this kind of change and objecting to it. We are after all human, and human beings are creatures of habit for good or ill. I used to live in Ramsgate on the south east coast near to a town called Cliftonville. Cliftonville in the past 10 years has become flooded with Kosovan refugees and other immigrants from eastern europe and if I were to be honest the area *has* declined partly because of it.

Immigration is a good thing (especially for economic reasons and for the cultural mixup) but when you allow it to happen uncontrolled and unchecked you can get ghetto problems like this. Its the same deal with gated communities. When given the opportunity to close yourself off, you really can lose touch with the people on the other side of the fences. You need open borders of communication between immigrant populations and local populations. Speaking the language really does help. Nothing can isolate groups of people more than not being able to talk to each other properly. Britain has had 25 years to untangle the mess it started in the 80s and it will never fully recover from it. But tolerance is growing (sometimes its hard to believe but it is).

This is happening in Dublin right now (where I currently live) and it is sad to see this country making the exact same mistakes that Britain did 25 years ago.

If you go to Dublin right now, head for the city centre and go into any shop - the people behind the counters. The people serving you food. The cleaners. They are all immigrants. Its hard to believe until you actually see it but Dublin has the second highest GDP in europe and this city has an obscene amount of money running through it right now. And I think its partly due to the uncontrolled influx of foreign workers. I mean, nearly the entire working class in this city is foreign. But because of the lack of control, the lack of organisation when it comes to allocating accomodation and issuing social security numbers - the whole thing is a mess and its going to cause trouble further down the line. I never understood why in a restaurant - all the ground staff will be chinese. Or all of the waitresses will be polish immigrants. Theres no attempt to control or disperse immigrant populations. Alot of stores have ground staff of all the same ethnic mix. Kids grow up in this city and they see black people and chinese people cleaning public toilets and this is normal for them. Its kind of shocking when you think of it like that but just come to Dublin - its normal here.

The distribution of skilled/unskilled immigrants is really skewered such that this country is accepting far too many unskilled, 1st and 2nd level eduation immigrants compared to graduate immigrants. The ratio is totally off kilter. And it creates the broad impression that foreigners clean toilets whilst Irish businessmen make the megabucks.

Some streets like Mary's Abbey have fallen into disrepair underneath all the chinese stalls and markets that have been set up. Walking through that street is like being in another country. Nobody speaks english. Half the people are trying to sell you phone cards in another language. And it irks some of the locals. It irks some of the people that lived in the area when it wasnt a complete mess. It irks me when I walk down that street because those people selling phone cards are genuinely annoying (and I am bloody half chinese myself). And it breeds resentment and thats never a good thing.

People like Salman Rushdie and Stuart Hall were drawing attention to this in the mid 80s - this kind of ghettoisation which resulted in not very much need to integrate well with the rest of the community. You can see that in Dublin right now and if you were to go to Cliftonville you would see it there too.

I myself am technically an immigrant - I am half English, Half Chinese, born in Hong Kong before the take over but have lived in England all my life and I am now living in Dublin. And even as an immigrant in this country I am appalled at the way immigration is handled here. Its a relatively new thing in Ireland because it is only in the past 10 years that Dublin has had any kind of economy at all. Before 1994, you had to leave Ireland to get a job if you were a graduate. There simply werent very many jobs available for graduate skills. Now its the other way around - people are coming from all over the world to find work in Dublin.

I tend not to have any political allignment in UK politics and the BNP has other agendas which I very much dislike. Ultimately most of the big political parties support policy which coincides with their own agenda. And often that isnt what coincides with my view of the world.

You have to be careful when you make connections with immigration control and the BNP. Theyhave their own agenda and we all have ours. I have become disillusioned and frankly, pissed off with domestic politics in the UK and Ireland and would rather have nothing to do with it, because it just brings out the worst kind of cynicism in me.

But to suggest that this sentiment is a result of racism is to miss the point. The race card was always the easiest one to play because its pretty fricking obvious. This kind of resentment happens elsewhere when race isnt an issue though.

For example, I went to university in southampton and the locals god damn hated us students. They built the largest student halls of residence in europe in between 2 council estates. First big mistake. The council estate kids regularly vandalised student property and attacked us. Some of my friends have been hurt quite badly.

But really when you look at it objectively its not hard ot see why. Students take the piss. We booze mid week. Hell, we booze all through the week. We monopolise all the pubs, clubs and bars. We get free bus passes. We get a grant from the government to study, but lets face it, the only thing the locals see is us doing with that money is getting pissed. They wont see us study because we do that on campus or in our dorms. Its not hard to see why the locals got annoyed with us stumbling home drunk and making a racket when they have to go to work the next day. And they get resentful. And it rubs off on their kids. And their kids take it out on us. And most of us still dont even know what we are doing wrong.

Substitute 'Student' with 'Immigrant.' As well as 'Pubs, Clubs and Bars' add 'Jobs' and 'Benefits' and whatever else there is. The Daily Mail is not a paper you should take seriously all of the time and their columnists are hardly racist so much as they are old fashioned and stuck in a time warp in the Thatcher years. Columnists like Peter Hitchens are simply put, brilliant comedians. I sometimes read the Daily Mail for the sh*t stirring and the comedy value alone. You should too.

But yea, I wish people wouldnt boil the whole thing down to racism when it is actually a whole lot more than that. And it is something that the government, immigrant populations and local populations have to work at. The onus isnt just on one group or the other.

Not bad Fire child welcome to Sudhian

The only other point I can make is Ireland and UK do have an effective immigration policy just the 500,000 odd claiming fraudulent benefits should be deported or any criminal activity. These are the ones that drain our systems dry not the hard working ones that want fair wages and the right to live in freedom.
We forget the basic reasons why our parents came to another country and this upsets me as your background sets a president on what you should bethinking today as a person rather than what media throws down your throat .
I would put money on it if BNP got into any real power and started to make fascists legistrations this country little Britain would not stand for it. You take all immigrants out of England it will have no population left, simple as that!

[Overkill]

These are all generalisations. You cannot boil the issue down to just racism. It is more than that.

But yea, I wish people wouldnt boil the whole thing down to racism when it is actually a whole lot more than that. And it is something that the government, immigrant populations and local populations have to work at. The onus isnt just on one group or the other.

Talking of generalisations............. much of the that post was that exactly.  ;-)  The comments I made are in fact based on hard data, on reading testimony from immigrants, and ironicaly, the background to Irish immigration.

I find it astounding to see someone claim that immigration is 'uncontrolled'. Never could anything be further from the truth. Both the UK and Ireland firmly control immigration, the Irish increasingly so. There have been seven major acts relating to immigration in the UK since 1948, (1962, 1968, 1971, 1981, 1988, 1993) all of which have restricted, not widened the number and type of immigrants coming into the UK. The recent changes in the number of migrants (which will now be restricted by the recent white paper) is due to EU regulations guiding cross border migration.

There have also been four race relations acts due to the widespread descrimination against racial minorities in the UK. The review in 1997' showed that not one of these had in fact reduced the level of descrimination, and that blacks in particular still suffered from:-

Well over average levels of unemployment when compared to their white counterparts with the same qualifications. Bangladeshies for example had 24% unemployment in 1992 when compared to just 12% for their white counterparts. The recent survey into this problem is expected to show similiar figures when published next year.

Poor experiences when attempting to join the services or constant harrasment when they are in them. A recent report underlined 'institutionalised racism' in the services.

Poor experiences with the police in day to day life. Blacks are statisticaly more likely to be assaulted by police when in custody or be wrongfully arrested.

Contrary to popular (Daily Mail, Express etc) belief, CRE reports show that immigrants communities are in fact far worse off than other groups in society when it comes to housing, with homelessness far more likely to be a problem amongst them (until 2001 white paper) than in white communities.

The reason for ghettos appearing, and these are, as first the French and Germans (18th and early 19th C), then the Irish and Jews (mid to late 19th) can testify, hardly anything new in London, is for safety in numbers. The major reason for immigrants coming this country, is as always, work. The usual reason is to fill vacancies the current population is unwilling to take. Hence, as you rightly point out, they often tend to do certain types of work and give the impression that they have 'taken over'. However, that is hardly their fault, and in a capitalist economy, not the govts either. How do you legislate to bring in controls to stop that happening? You don't. If people just left migrants to get on with their work without worrying about race creed or gender it wouldn't be a problem. But contrary to what people are happier believing, they do.

The Irish thing is quite appalying, and I'm glad you brought it up. This is a nation who exported 50% (yes 50%) of its population in the 19th C, who's people brought exactly the same problems, in your terms not mine, to wherever they went, and yet now they are doing their best to restrict immigration when the circle has come round and times are good! Frankly their attitude sickens me. I too have relatives in Ireland, and while they love the place, they view the current racism, because thats what it is, towards migrants as horrifing in it's ignorance of history and in it's rejection of the lessons their own compatriots learnt so hard.

Just listening to my rellys, in-laws, attitude to immigrants is a reminder that nobody learns from history, that bigotry is not restricted to any one people, and that perhaps the Unionists have a case when they voice real fears about absorbtion into one Ireland!

Don't get me wrong, I love the Irish (being a third generation decendant I would!) but that doesn't mean I like attitudes that stink!

The point about students is a red herring. People dislike students because they often exude wealth in areas which don't have it. Liverpool is a good example. Student bashing is, or to be more accurate was, a pasttime here, it has nothing to do with in built resentments beyond the perception that they were rich kids. Much of that has gone as the student population is now drawn from across the classes.  

The British, as research shows, are steeped in institutionalised racism. Ignore it at your peril. Playing the race card is easy, simply because there is so much out there. The BNP are merely the tip of a much more sinister iceberg.  It's an ugly truth that the vast mjority of people are very uncomfortable with and unhappy to accept. I would caution against also doing so.

As to Peter Hitchins, that can only have been said by a student! Try reading his books. He is far from a joke, nor is he old-fashioned. He is dangerous................

One last thing, I can understand cynicsm with regards UK politics, but with Irish politics?! That lot are such a hilariously (and openly) corrupt shower. I would take a leaf out of the average Irishmans book. Treat them with humerous contempt. They don't take them too seriously, and neither should you.  :coolsmile:

[iamjack]

Overkill,
I'm still not convinced.  Institutional rascism I'll agree with in the context of the Police, as most of them are nasty, workshy b*stards anyway... but the British public?  

Peter Hitchins - dangerous? ROTFLMAO!  I'll wait until I see "My Struggle" by Peter Hitchins on the shelves before I pass judgement on that!  That reminds me... how is the Enabling Law... sorry Legislative and Regulatory Reform Bill doing at the moment?

[Mefistofeles]

Aside from starting this topic I haven't made any significant contributions until now, yet it seems to have taken on a life of its own.

I’m still not convinced.  Institutional rascism I’ll agree with in the context of the Police, as most of them are nasty, workshy b*stards anyway… but the British public?  

Lol the British police are well known throughout the world for their professionalism and excellent relations with the public.  I happen to live in Southern California and more specifically an area policed by a law enforcement agency that has been cited by amensty international so your complaints about the unprofessionalism of British police is totally without merit, at least from my point of view.

[Overkill]

Overkill,
I'm still not convinced.  Institutional rascism I'll agree with in the context of the Police, as most of them are nasty, workshy b*stards anyway... but the British public?  

Peter Hitchins - dangerous? ROTFLMAO!  I'll wait until I see "My Struggle" by Peter Hitchins on the shelves before I pass judgement on that!  That reminds me... how is the Enabling Law... sorry Legislative and Regulatory Reform Bill doing at the moment?

Fair enough Jack. There are tons more figures I can present, but frankly, I know when people don't want to hear it. I have been shocked myself too many times by peoples casual racism for me to contradict what I've read. People who I've always thought (and still do) are really ok, still come out with "bloody *aki's" have just moved in down my road". "Bastards". Etc, etc.

Peter Hitchins works are in fact very much in that mode. His ideas (as they influence high politics) are no laughing matter at all. Anyone who makes (without bursting into laughter) comments about the "dillution of our racial purity" and yet has the ear of the shadow education secretary, is not to be taken lightly.

[iamjack]

Aside from starting this topic I haven't made any significant contributions until now, yet it seems to have taken on a life of its own.

I’m still not convinced.  Institutional rascism I’ll agree with in the context of the Police, as most of them are nasty, workshy b*stards anyway… but the British public?  

Lol the British police are well known throughout the world for their professionalism and excellent relations with the public.  I happen to live in Southern California and more specifically an area policed by a law enforcement agency that has been cited by amensty international so your complaints about the unprofessionalism of British police is totally without merit, at least from my point of view.

So exactly how do you, several THOUSAND miles away have any clue what goes on in the UK?  With the police in the country I am talking about, which actually requires someone living here who knows police officers and maybe even has mates in the police force...  Perhaps you should have thought harder before making that so-called 'significant contribution' eh?

[Mefistofeles]

So exactly how do you, several THOUSAND miles away have any clue what goes on in the UK?  With the police in the country I am talking about, which actually requires someone living here who knows police officers and maybe even has mates in the police force… Perhaps you should have thought harder before making that so-called ‘significant contribution’ eh?

British law enforcement has a very good reputation for being very easy going that procedes them .  Where I live very few people would ask a police officier for directions if they are lost.  Police are practically feared where I lived.  As a friend of mine who once worked on LAPD told me he was disappointed that after the Rodney King beating people wouldn't runaway when  they saw him.

Trust me your law enforcement has a very good reputation and uses far less force than police forces in large American cities.  

British law enforcement does have a good reputation abroad,even among people here in the states who have spent time in a British jail.

Do some research and you'll be suprised from a PR point of view your country has a law enforcement structure that is well regarded the world over.

[Reflex]

Mef - Yeah, right, the LAPD is that bad.  If that were the case they'd be sued every other day.  I call BS.  The worst police departments in the US are as follows: New Orleans, Washington DC and Detroit.  The LAPD is not among the top, thats for certain, but its hardly what you imply either.  And yes, I'm from Simi Valley CA and my father lived there for 30 years.

Rodney King is hardly 'proof' of a systemic problem, especially since the media neglected to show the first parts of the tape showing him charging the cops and not going down after several hits from a taser, nor did they mention the fact that he was high on PCP, had a major record, was driving a stolen car, and had just lead police on a 100mph chase through downtown LA.  I'd pick a better example than Rodney King, in that situation I believe the police acted appropriatly.

And yes, I'll definatly take Jack's word about British cops over yours, he kind of lives there you know...

[iamjack]

There are tons more figures I can present, but frankly, I know when people don't want to hear it. I have been shocked myself too many times by peoples casual racism for me to contradict what I've read. People who I've always thought (and still do) are really ok, still come out with "bloody *aki's" have just moved in down my road". "Bastards". Etc, etc.

Eh? 'Bastards' isnt by of and in itself a racial epithet, unless you are suggesting that the probability that someone has a father can be categorised by someones race... which is actually being racist to make that assumption, surely.  Does this not make you [subcounsciously] racist Overkill?  It would certainly go some way to bearing out your theory about the UK after all...

[hydran]

There is something to be said for the British police - they do not routinely carry guns.  When they do, you get what happened to Jean Charles de Menezes:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4713753.stm

A routinely armed police force encourages criminal gangs to tool-up, and makes them want to shoot the cops first.  I don't know why, but it kind of works to have a policeforce that doesn't carry guns.  Realistically you will catch the bad guy eventually with CCTV evidence and so on, you dont have to risk killing innocents, cops or the bad guys by shooting weapons.

I suppose in a strange way it reminds me of how the american police forces have stopped doing those wacky car-chases that endanger everyones' lives.  Just stick a chopper in the air and track them down, or get their plate and rely on intelligence and having multiple officers track the subjects over a distance - they won't get far.

[Clipperjay]

Eh? 'Bastards' isnt by of and in itself a racial epithet, unless you are suggesting that the probability that someone has a father can be categorised by someones race... which is actually being racist to make that assumption, surely.  Does this not make you [subcounsciously] racist Overkill?  It would certainly go some way to bearing out your theory about the UK after all...

Iamjack if your touched by discrimination aren't you in essensence tainted by it yourself?

[iamjack]

British law enforcement has a very good reputation for being very easy going that procedes them .  Where I live very few people would ask a police officier for directions if they are lost.  Police are practically feared where I lived.  As a friend of mine who once worked on LAPD told me he was disappointed that after the Rodney King beating people wouldn't runaway when  they saw him.

Trust me your law enforcement has a very good reputation and uses far less force than police forces in large American cities.  

British law enforcement does have a good reputation abroad,even among people here in the states who have spent time in a British jail.

Do some research and you'll be suprised from a PR point of view your country has a law enforcement structure that is well regarded the world over.

Eh? Force? Not Rascist!? Yeah, Right! Maybe if Met officers could tell the difference between a Hispanic person and an Arab then Charles De Menezes wouldnt have been held down and shot 8 times in the face on a tube train.  What about Christopher Alder?  A black man who choked to death in Police custody (actually in a police station) while officers stood around him chatting casually and making monkey noises....  Just because the LAPD are worse, should people in the UK suddenly hold our police officers as paragons of moral and ethical virtue just because they are 'not as bad'?  Get real! Thats like saying everythings in the US is fine because LAPDs worst werent half as bad as South African 'police' at the height of Apartheid...  Just how can anyone rational possibly reconcile two totally different situations in that way?

Secondly, anyone who can't tell the difference between PR and REALITY is maybe a little too niave to be posting about such a subject IMOSHO...

[iamjack]

Eh? 'Bastards' isnt by of and in itself a racial epithet, unless you are suggesting that the probability that someone has a father can be categorised by someones race... which is actually being racist to make that assumption, surely.  Does this not make you [subcounsciously] racist Overkill?  It would certainly go some way to bearing out your theory about the UK after all...

Iamjack if youre touched by discrimination aren't you in essensence tainted by it yourself?

True, due to my ethnicity, descent and class any discrimination against me (and my  'race' ) is (and always was) sanctioned by government.

[thegrayson]

I have just started reading this thread and some of the comments here about Ireland have left me incensed   . Mainly voiced by Overkill I think. I will say that not being a great student of history or follower of current affairs that much of what I say below is based on dim recollection, but you should be able to see where I'm coming from.

Both the UK and Ireland firmly control immigration, the Irish increasingly so. There have been seven major acts relating to immigration in the UK since 1948, (1962, 1968, 1971, 1981, 1988, 1993) all of which have restricted, not widened the number and type of immigrants coming into the UK. The recent changes in the number of migrants (which will now be restricted by the recent white paper) is due to EU regulations guiding cross border migration.

Controlled by legislation is one thing, actuall physical control is another. Because of Europes policy of open internal borders immigrants once within the EU pass seem to pass freely from one state to the next. Having worked closely with asylum seekers for some years I was well aware of individuals claiming welfare in up to three states at a time! Illegal, yes, still doable though.

The reason for ghettos appearing, and these are, as first the French and Germans (18th and early 19th C), then the Irish and Jews (mid to late 19th) can testify, hardly anything new in London, is for safety in numbers.

At this point Ireland was ruled by Britain, British politicians, business men and landowners, because of the poor treatment of the Irish  at home many had no other alternative. There was also the infamous "Potato" Famine. More on that later.

The Irish thing is quite appalying, and I’m glad you brought it up. This is a nation who exported 50% (yes 50%) of its population in the 19th C, who’s people brought exactly the same problems, in your terms not mine, to wherever they went, and yet now they are doing their best to restrict immigration when the circle has come round and times are good!

Export is an unfair choice of word. This situation was brought about not by the Irish themselves but by the British Government of the time and their appointees in Ireland. As I mentioned above many left because they were stiffled at home, there were no oppurtunities here at all. When the potato crop failed not only a source of food was lost but in many case an only, if meagre, source of income. A substitute food source, maize, was supplied by the government but without proper instruction on how to prepare it, this did more harm than good.Without that income, a  mainly tenant population was evicted en masse by mainly British landowners. Many were shipped to Austrailia as convicts, usually for stealing food, and many because it was convenient. With so many dying from starvation, homelessness and disease and no viable solution, if any, being implemented by the government many left Ireland just so they could survive, also hoping that they could in turn help family members remaining at home by helping them escape what at the time was percieved as oppression, or at the least send home money to help ease the situation. Over 1,000,000 died from starvation and disease and in the first 9 years over 2,000,000 emmigrated. The 1841 census showed a population of 8,500,000. Our current population is only 4,00,000 ish including northern ireland.

Just listening to my rellys, in-laws, attitude to immigrants is a reminder that nobody learns from history, that bigotry is not restricted to any one people, and that perhaps the Unionists have a case when they voice real fears about absorbtion into one Ireland!

Who split the blasted country to begin with? Who set up the scottish protestant communities in the north? Plantation they were called at the time. I in no way condone any of the terrorist activities that have taken place over the years, on either side, but this is yet another of many messes world wide left by the great "British Empire". One of the biggest bones of contention each year is the marching season. In some ways a celebration of the victories of Willian of Orange, King Billie, during his war with James of Scotland, a war fought largely in Ireland, in many ways another invasion of Ireland. So in the north, we have nominally Irish people, Unionists - Orange Order, who want as little as possible to do with Ireland, on a political level at least, celebrating the victory of a Dutch King of England on Irish soil against a King of Scotland, who championed Ireland, on Irish soil. They then complain when there are objections, rightly or wrongly, to their parade routes through Catholic areas(wasnt it the protestant rulers that created the divide?) on the ground that it is traditional, that it is their right. Actual politics aside the situation is a farce. Politically the Unionists and Dr. Ian Paisley are one of the biggest impediments to any resolution in the north.

One last thing, I can understand cynicsm with regards UK politics, but with Irish politics?! That lot are such a hilariously (and openly) corrupt shower. I would take a leaf out of the average Irishmans book.

Bear in mind the Irish government as we know it is only 58 years old, technically the Rep of Ireland only came into being in 1948. Considering that we're not doing to badly. If by corruption you mean all the ongoing tribunals? Most of the pertintent incidents took place in the eighties and early nineties. Though I dont doubt that it still exists I would say that it is more prominent on a local rather than state level. Can you categorically say thatnone of your parlimentarians are corrupt? I doubt it. Politicians and their antics are in general hilarious, all you need to do is watch the British parliment or Irish Oireachtas in session to hear the badly composed speeches, poor stand-up routines and hopeless jeering.

There is definitely evidence of bigotry here but I would say less rather than more. My father was a marine engineer not more that 30 years ago and he recalls signs on buildings stating "No Dogs, Blacks or Irish" no when I'm abroad and get dirty looks because people think I'm English I get only the warnest of welcomes when I point out that I'm Irish. The world's perception of the Irsih has progressed a long way. Worldwide the Irish have integrated well into their adopted countries.
Unfortunately I fear that new immigrants to Ireland will not do so well. Despite largely being well recieved, ghettos are forming. Too many are not interested in learning English, yet still complain of a lack of suitable jobs? Cultural differences too are causing grief. An African man recently took our health service to court because they would not circumcise his child two days after his birth as would have been done by a tribal elder in his home in Africa. He want his cultural needs to exceed accepted medical practice(2 years I think). Too many people wish to continue as if they were in their country of origin. I'm sorry but if that is the case, and they cannot accept differences and the predominent culture in their new country then why the hell are they here? Neither I nor anyone I know expect to be given differential treatment in a foreign country when we travel so what right do foreigners have to come here and expect the world to spin on its axis to their benefit?

Edited for formatting, I messed up the quotes earlier  :red:

[Clipperjay]

thegrayson has made a point I believe is true.
Cultural differences and non understanding is the single biggest cause of racisium anywhere in the country I myself have been targeted and to be honest ignorance is a better word for it.
I find calling someone a Pakis or Chinky sorry if the spelling is wrong The label applies to Brown, Yellow and Black.
 They don't realise Indians and Pakistanis have been fighting for centuries, Chinese and Japanese have conflict since World War II.
 
My point is there will always be bigots and fascists out there, but they are the ones who buy and consume products and services from foriegn bodies and lets get to the truth they are the minority?