Most Brits Support BNP Policies to Limit Immigration

[Overkill]

There are tons more figures I can present, but frankly, I know when people don't want to hear it. I have been shocked myself too many times by peoples casual racism for me to contradict what I've read. People who I've always thought (and still do) are really ok, still come out with "bloody *aki's" have just moved in down my road". "Bastards". Etc, etc.

Eh? 'Bastards' isnt by of and in itself a racial epithet, unless you are suggesting that the probability that someone has a father can be categorised by someones race... which is actually being racist to make that assumption, surely.  Does this not make you [subcounsciously] racist Overkill?  It would certainly go some way to bearing out your theory about the UK after all...

So calling someone a paki bastard isn't racist? Sorry jack, but that's thin, very thin. Trying to accuse me of being racist because I object to people making offensive statements about people they don't even know, just because they have moved in down their street and happen to be the 'wrong colour' (as far as they are concerned) is pretty damn thin too. Out of interest, I could hardly be 'anti Bastard' - for 18 months I was one.  :coolsmirk:

TheGrayson that's really what I call diving in without knowing whats gone on before. I am notorious (elsewhere) for winding up the anti Irish crowd and the Unionists. ;-) I am fully aware of Irish history, and I totally appreciate your anger over past British (mis)rule. A student of mine was just discussing their dissertation today - on the Liverpool Irish immigration and the Potato famine. The word 'export' was unfortunate (although it's used in varied history books with regards British as well as Irish migration) and I apologise if it offended.

However, the past does not excuse Irish people behaving poorly towards new migrants into Ireland.

Cultural differences certainly are amongst the problems with regards race relations. However, it's far easier to be white muslim than a black one. To be a white immigrant from Africa than a black one. The colour of the skin marks you down, as does your choice of dress (Jewish traditional for example). That would not be the case if people did not already have built in prejudices.

[VorLonUK]

MeFist,

Lol the British police are well known throughout the world for their professionalism and excellent relations with the public.  I happen to live in Southern California and more specifically an area policed by a law enforcement agency that has been cited by amensty international so your complaints about the unprofessionalism of British police is totally without merit, at least from my point of view.

Are you being for real?  Surely your Police can't be that bad?

[Reflex]

He's just making things seem worse where he is in order to make his statement about something he knows little of(British police) seem more relevant.  Trust me, it isn't that bad.  The LAPD won't win any awards, but they aren't among the worst in this country much less the worst in the world.

[thegrayson]

However, the past does not excuse Irish people behaving poorly towards new migrants into Ireland.

Ireland as a whole is not behaving poorly towards new migrants, there will always be bigots and dissenters in any society. There are plenty of nay sayers however and I count myself as one of them, it is nothing to do with racism, it is due to the fact that in many cases migrants, European or otherwise are recieving benefits from the state above and beyond those of Irish people, there are even payments available to migrants that we are not eligible for. We are in some ways now being descrimated against for being Irish in our own country. Despite Ireland's currently booming economy due to the mistakes of the past and poor policy in government our infrastructure, health system, education system and housing levels are poorly developed to meet the needs of the people of Ireland, let alone the thousands of additional migrants arriving here each year. I have been refused state aid to date for medical expenses, housing, education, and a few others. I am by no means "wealthy". I have a steady job but fall in the low income bracket. I spend my evenings studying.  At 30 years old the chance of me being able to purchase my own home with the current interest rates and housing market anytime soon is slim. With current traffic problems and insurance rates buying a car is uneconomical.

Yet an individual can come to this country as an asylum seeker, if single they will be housed in an recieving unit. If with a family they are allowed seek regular rented accomodation. Their accomodation is paid for by the dept of social welfare, they also recieve a weekly payment to cover their food and living costs. This is no different to how Irish welfare cases are treated. However, there is a roughly €3,000 supplement available to each individual to help them buy a car, this also is supposed to count towards tax and insurance, which generally isn't bothered with, and isn't persued by the police unless there is an accident to account for. This is not a benefit I can recieve! They are also automaticly entitled to free medical care, without exception. Taxis and any other travel cost are paid for if they are requiered to attend a hearing of their case or if they are relocated. On top of this many work illegally and are not persued for breaking the law. In fact I know of many that have served jail sentences while waiting on their applications to be processed and then been granted asylum.

An asylum application can take up to 4 years to process, if at that point the case is refused an appeal can be made, this can take up to another 2 years. Up to six years supporting the living, medical, education and car costs of people that in many cases return to their home countries voluntarily on refusal of their application after a four year holiday at the expense of the average Irish tax payer. Tell me that isn't wrong! I cant blame the individual migrants for this state of affairs, its all down to poor legisaltion and poor policy but maybe you can see why I and many others are damned unhappy and why when ranting like this people might assume we are being rascist.

At the moment in Ireland its estimated that we have over 100,000 migrant Polish living and working here.
Any individual from an EU state living in another EU state may claim a Childrens Welfare benefit for their children even if those children are living in a different state. As I mentioned in a orevious post it is now quite feasible for people to defraud the system by claiming in multiple state because of poor record keeping methods in various countries. Special funds are being made available to polish community groups, integration projects, language classes are being set up. Because of the number of eastern european deaths in road accidents recently there is a serious proposal afoot for a state run driving course aimed at helping left hand drive europeans adjust to right hand drive? WTF, we dont have any state sponsored drivers education for Irish drivers yet and the waiting period for a driving test exceeds 12 months in many parts of the country.

It has become so politically correct to be seen to look after the needs of minority groups that  in many ways the obvious and urgent needs of the majority are being overlooked.

[Clipperjay]

Thegreyson I have a few questions for you matey and need you to take a long look at what your answer could be?

1) If there were no immigrants in Ireland do you think you would be in the same boat? No car, no house etc.
2) Does claiming benefits mean more money for you, if you lost your job?
3) How did the English discriminate the Irish back in the 60's 70's early 80's? in terms of how hard was it to get a job in England if you was Irish?  

I don't see your racists in anyway, but understand your frustration with the government B/S red tape.

 I hear lots of pointing in the direction of illegal’s coming into a country, but I honestly think that the system which processes them is the problem?
How do you separate society’s attitudes from legal from illegal, (minus the benefit scammers?) becuase once before the legals have been processed they were illegal?

[hydran]

I think illegal and working immigrants are far more valuable to a country/society than benefit scammers (who are "legal" in terms of their status, but work a system just so that they can watch tots' TV and smoke dope all day).

[Overkill]

However, the past does not excuse Irish people behaving poorly towards new migrants into Ireland.

Ireland as a whole is not behaving poorly towards new migrants, there will always be bigots and dissenters in any society. There are plenty of nay sayers however and I count myself as one of them, it is nothing to do with racism, it is due to the fact that in many cases migrants, European or otherwise are recieving benefits from the state above and beyond those of Irish people, there are even payments available to migrants that we are not eligible for. We are in some ways now being descrimated against for being Irish in our own country. Despite Ireland's currently booming economy due to the mistakes of the past and poor policy in government our infrastructure, health system, education system and housing levels are poorly developed to meet the needs of the people of Ireland, let alone the thousands of additional migrants arriving here each year. I have been refused state aid to date for medical expenses, housing, education, and a few others. I am by no means "wealthy". I have a steady job but fall in the low income bracket. I spend my evenings studying.  At 30 years old the chance of me being able to purchase my own home with the current interest rates and housing market anytime soon is slim. With current traffic problems and insurance rates buying a car is uneconomical.

Yet an individual can come to this country as an asylum seeker, if single they will be housed in an recieving unit. If with a family they are allowed seek regular rented accomodation. Their accomodation is paid for by the dept of social welfare, they also recieve a weekly payment to cover their food and living costs. This is no different to how Irish welfare cases are treated. However, there is a roughly €3,000 supplement available to each individual to help them buy a car, this also is supposed to count towards tax and insurance, which generally isn't bothered with, and isn't persued by the police unless there is an accident to account for. This is not a benefit I can recieve! They are also automaticly entitled to free medical care, without exception. Taxis and any other travel cost are paid for if they are requiered to attend a hearing of their case or if they are relocated. On top of this many work illegally and are not persued for breaking the law. In fact I know of many that have served jail sentences while waiting on their applications to be processed and then been granted asylum.

An asylum application can take up to 4 years to process, if at that point the case is refused an appeal can be made, this can take up to another 2 years. Up to six years supporting the living, medical, education and car costs of people that in many cases return to their home countries voluntarily on refusal of their application after a four year holiday at the expense of the average Irish tax payer. Tell me that isn't wrong! I cant blame the individual migrants for this state of affairs, its all down to poor legisaltion and poor policy but maybe you can see why I and many others are damned unhappy and why when ranting like this people might assume we are being rascist.

At the moment in Ireland its estimated that we have over 100,000 migrant Polish living and working here.
Any individual from an EU state living in another EU state may claim a Childrens Welfare benefit for their children even if those children are living in a different state. As I mentioned in a orevious post it is now quite feasible for people to defraud the system by claiming in multiple state because of poor record keeping methods in various countries. Special funds are being made available to polish community groups, integration projects, language classes are being set up. Because of the number of eastern european deaths in road accidents recently there is a serious proposal afoot for a state run driving course aimed at helping left hand drive europeans adjust to right hand drive? WTF, we dont have any state sponsored drivers education for Irish drivers yet and the waiting period for a driving test exceeds 12 months in many parts of the country.

It has become so politically correct to be seen to look after the needs of minority groups that  in many ways the obvious and urgent needs of the majority are being overlooked.

I'm sorry grayson but all you've done with that post is convince me I'm utterly right.

Many of the immigrants going to Ireland are geniune, are seeking work, but are still disliked. The asylum seeker thing is, as it is here, a 'red herring'. Banging on about how they do 'better than the Irish' sounds so much like Daily Mail speak it's untrue.  Ironic really, considering how much that paper hates the Irish republic, and republicanism in general. The whole asylum seeker thing is cynicaly blown out of all proportion (and the statistics here prove it) in terms of what they do and don't get, how many there are, and how many are actually 'bogus'. I don't doubt for a second, (and I've seen some EU figures) that in Ireland the same is true.

But the media can get away it with because people are only to willing to gobble it up as proof that the 'w*gs are taking over'.

It's ironic really, as the Irish were accused (wrongly) of milking our poor law system in the 19th C. Just as they are now accused of milking the EU for all it's worth, and building up their economy on the back of British taxpayers. Do you think that is true?

I don't, but many English people do.

[thegrayson]

Clipperjay:
1) In the same boat, yes probably, my life has not been smooth and I am now playing catch up in many respects due to personal set backs in my early 20s, my point was, perhaps not clearly though, that the average hard working Irish tax payer has to bust their balls for these things due to our high cost of living, why are so many immigrants automaticly entitled free housing, food, healthcare and of all things a bloody car? with so many Irish people crying out for assistance for the same? many far far more needy than I'll ever be. I owned a car for two years, I needed it to travel to work, when I left that job I sold the car because I was taking up college again part-time I couldnt pay insurance and college fees. You cant legally drive without insuracne so I sold the car. I abide by the law. The majority of immigrants I know drive without tax or insurance, even proper ownership papers. If in an accident they can then run away and leave the car. Even if they are caught little is done.Why is there an exception, even unofficially for immigrants?

2)I'm not sure I understand your question. At the moment I am not entitled to any subsidies unless perhaps the Revenue Commisioner allows me a small tax rebate, if that counts. If I lose my job I am allowed claim unemployment benefit and and may qualify for a medical card and  rent allowance, but I have for the past 12 years worked in jobs varying from pumping petrol and sweeping yards to admin and IT and consistantly paid tax for all those jobs. I'm well well entitled to it I believe.

3)Thats not a point I brought up. Honestly I have no idea, as already mentioned I'm thirty and have no experience of the situation then. I am aware however that because of the situation in Northern Ireland and the frequent bombings at the time there was a lot of suspicion towards the Irish and this caused a lot of tensions socially.

I agree the system for processing illegals is definitely the root of many problems. If i had a viable solution I'd be running for public office so I could effect some useful changes. The vast majority of immigrants in Ireland are here legally, seeking asylum or otherwise, I'm complaining about the defferential treatment they recieve beccause they are a minority. My viewpoint is in many ways skewed because of the attitudes I was exposed to while working in security in an asylum seekers residential unit. I was called a rascist and had fights picked with me on an almost daily basis. I was aware of welfare scams, drug peddling, shoplifting, credit card fraud, stolen goods, and numerous other dodgey activities. Of over 1,000 individuals I met in a period of about two years roughly 90% were not genuine, their applications were filled in and until they were processed one way or the other they were allowed free run and abuse of the system.
Without considering all the benefits at last year's weekly rates rent=€65, weekly=€137 for 900 people over two years that comes to
(65+137)*900*104(weeks)=€18,907,200 and remember that doesnt take into account medical or travel or admin costs or a bloody free car either. And it only accounts for one small center. The money invloved gets scary real fast.
Because all the claims are "legal" it amounts to goverment sanctioned scamming, but it is immigrants that benefit. Hell when their application is eventually refused after up to six years we even fly them home, with a police escort.

[thegrayson]

I think illegal and working immigrants are far more valuable to a country/society than benefit scammers (who are "legal" in terms of their status, but work a system just so that they can watch tots' TV and smoke dope all day).

Well put Hydran, and without me digressing further you sum up my opinions without me wandering all over the place and digging myself a hole.

[thegrayson]

I’m sorry grayson but all you’ve done with that post is convince me I’m utterly right.

Many of the immigrants going to Ireland are geniune, are seeking work, but are still disliked.

Er.... NO. Many immigrants are genuine I agree, I wouldnt say they are disliked, what is more correct is that people dislike the system that allows the scammers to scam with impunity and get away with it, in multiple countries with multipl identities.
My strong opinions are coloured by very strong personal opinions. Long hours spent arguing over simple Dept. of Justice approve regs for the running of residential units because despite being in Ireland, uninvited, they still want to do things the way they do "at home" many of these arguments ended in physical assaults with and without weapons. Why would anybody expect that several hundred miles from their country of origin with a different climate, language and culture that things ahould be done their way I will never understand.
Experience did prove over time that the unit I worked in did recieve an inordinate number of trouble makers, frequently moved from other units.

Ideally,
Immigrants coming here to work should be granted permits, workers are need. Asylum seekers should be process concisely to avoid causing them distress and prevent milking of our system, and if refused sent home asap. English is the language spoken here, though we appreciate efforts to learn Irish too, lessons should be taken to lessen communication difficulties. They should be treated no differently by our welfare system than the Irish ourselves. Its bad enough that we are bent over backwards to accomodate our own ethnic minority!

Its funny that there should be a perception in the UK that Ireland are milking the funds for all they are worth, especially when you consider that in addition to any grants that the UK recieve from the EU they also recieve up to a 3billion pound rebate annually. This has been a sticking point in the arguing of new agricultural policy for three years now. The UK wants to cut agri funds and Ireland, France and Germany dont want to at least not unless the UK waives its rebate. Ireland does argue EU funds heatedly because without them under current open market policy many of our beef and dairy farms and our entire fishing industry would be gone overnight. Fishing quotas are also a sore point. I'm amazed there hasnt been open war at sea between Spanish and Irish fishing vessels.

[Clipperjay]

Clipperjay:
1) In the same boat, yes probably, my life has not been smooth and I am now playing catch up in many respects due to personal set backs in my early 20s, my point was, perhaps not clearly though, that the average hard working Irish tax payer has to bust their balls for these things due to our high cost of living, why are so many immigrants automaticly entitled free housing, food, healthcare and of all things a bloody car? with so many Irish people crying out for assistance for the same? many far far more needy than I'll ever be. I owned a car for two years, I needed it to travel to work, when I left that job I sold the car because I was taking up college again part-time I couldnt pay insurance and college fees. You cant legally drive without insuracne so I sold the car. I abide by the law. The majority of immigrants I know drive without tax or insurance, even proper ownership papers. If in an accident they can then run away and leave the car. Even if they are caught little is done.Why is there an exception, even unofficially for immigrants?

Clip
With this understanding of money and status regardless of influx do you think that taxes and Vat would be higher due to lack of incomes generated via smaller society wthout foreigners? So the facts that these legal and illegal do actually contribute to the Irish economy? With Irish folk crying out for more money how was this going to be funded maybe more taxes and VAT from native Irish workers? Cars are considered a luxury which I won’t debate about mate pure and simple public transport what’s left of it still exists. I did without so I can’t see a problem, which I respect your judgment as you decided to pay fees instead. Under the same banner native Irish people are entitled to the same housing and health care? “Define needier Irish than I”?
I’ve said before driving without papers is desperation and if caught then fines and ban Failing the Irish traffic police and the laws in Ireland is dually noted.

2)I'm not sure I understand your question. At the moment I am not entitled to any subsidies unless perhaps the Revenue Commisioner allows me a small tax rebate, if that counts. If I lose my job I am allowed claim unemployment benefit and and may qualify for a medical card and  rent allowance, but I have for the past 12 years worked in jobs varying from pumping petrol and sweeping yards to admin and IT and consistantly paid tax for all those jobs. I'm well well entitled to it I believe.

Clip
This was a point that under the same rules and regulations you can have the same benefits without discrimination as leagals. You maintained your position once again honourable instead of claiming benefits.

3)Thats not a point I brought up. Honestly I have no idea, as already mentioned I'm thirty and have no experience of the situation then. I am aware however that because of the situation in Northern Ireland and the frequent bombings at the time there was a lot of suspicion towards the Irish and this caused a lot of tensions socially.

Clip
I didn’t expect you to, but a bit of background to this was what you’re saying today happened to your parents or anyone who joined England back then. Irish was a dirty word to employers didn’t want to hear. My wife is Irish and I have to listen to the in-laws all the time so you know where I’m coming from?


I agree the system for processing illegals is definitely the root of many problems. If i had a viable solution I'd be running for public office so I could effect some useful changes. The vast majority of immigrants in Ireland are here legally, seeking asylum or otherwise, I'm complaining about the defferential treatment they recieve beccause they are a minority. My viewpoint is in many ways skewed because of the attitudes I was exposed to while working in security in an asylum seekers residential unit. I was called a rascist and had fights picked with me on an almost daily basis. I was aware of welfare scams, drug peddling, shoplifting, credit card fraud, stolen goods, and numerous other dodgey activities. Of over 1,000 individuals I met in a period of about two years roughly 90% were not genuine, their applications were filled in and until they were processed one way or the other they were allowed free run and abuse of the system.
Without considering all the benefits at last year's weekly rates rent=€65, weekly=€137 for 900 people over two years that comes to
(65+137)*900*104(weeks)=€18,907,200 and remember that doesnt take into account medical or travel or admin costs or a bloody free car either. And it only accounts for one small center. The money invloved gets scary real fast.
Because all the claims are "legal" it amounts to goverment sanctioned scamming, but it is immigrants that benefit. Hell when their application is eventually refused after up to six years we even fly them home, with a police escort.

(Clip Q above last paragraph.)
This is the most honest piece of section of writing in here thegrayson you yourself have been tainted by discrimination on the other side and the ones picking fights with you must think your King of the Hill being naturalised. 90% some bad yes, some desperate enough as they can not work legally and have a few items of comfort resorting to criminal activities sure! That’s a debate for the law and due process? Like I have said how can you separate yourself the ones genuine or not if processed under the same code? 18,907,200 Euros for one centre is not Good considering if these illegal’s become working and tax paying it equates to about Three years contribution from all those who have been processed not including the amount of VAT they paid northern or Southern one is EU the other not Correct? This is a major issue which you can view positively or negatively. This is where I draw lines and government should fix budgets for Red Tape, but once again Ireland was founded on independence and freedom of its people. So does that make me a racists or discrimative only time will tell if immigrants can contribute enough to pay back society’s costs?
Sometimes we find ourselves looking and think well I could take the attitudes of an easy road out, but you yourself have shown that you have the insight to get on with it like most people.
I still think deportation for two time criminal activities or longer probational periods for known offenders, this would help, but at what costs which is the crux of the argument of letting them stay or get rid of the whole lot? How do you separate the bad from the good?
 You can only have one rule, otherwise double standards are to be seen.
The system is floored due to one reason the majority of immigrants are seen as genuine. Whilst the bad exploit the loop holes to start there criminal activities which is minority in my humble opinion?

[iamjack]

Clipperjay:
1) In the same boat, yes probably, my life has not been smooth and I am now playing catch up in many respects due to personal set backs in my early 20s, my point was, perhaps not clearly though, that the average hard working Irish tax payer has to bust their balls for these things due to our high cost of living, why are so many immigrants automaticly entitled free housing, food, healthcare and of all things a bloody car? with so many Irish people crying out for assistance for the same? many far far more needy than I'll ever be. I owned a car for two years, I needed it to travel to work, when I left that job I sold the car because I was taking up college again part-time I couldnt pay insurance and college fees. You cant legally drive without insuracne so I sold the car. I abide by the law. The majority of immigrants I know drive without tax or insurance, even proper ownership papers. If in an accident they can then run away and leave the car. Even if they are caught little is done.Why is there an exception, even unofficially for immigrants?

This is an exceptionally good point.  When my Dads parents came over from Ireland they experienced a hard life as second-class citizens due to the animosity against Irish at the time.  Compare such a struggle (or indeed the struggles of the parents of other 1st/2nd gen immigrants of other races) with the treatment and benefits lavished on immigrants these days.  The fact is that if you work hard and make anything of yourself in this country then the government takes a big sh*t on you, it's plain to see - so exactly what message does the government think its giving people moving to this country? Work Hard? - Why bother when you can sit on benefits for life (even if you hate this country -  Abu Hamza was living in a £500k house for FREE) Why bother when you can slack every day and still get half the hassle thats handed out to people who work every day and pay tax (and stealth tax) thru the nose?

[Clipperjay]

Iamjack

This is an exceptionally good point.  When my Dads parents came over from Ireland they experienced a hard life as second-class citizens due to the animosity against Irish at the time.  Compare such a struggle (or indeed the struggles of the parents of other 1st/2nd gen immigrants of other races) with the treatment and benefits lavished on immigrants these days.  The fact is that if you work hard and make anything of yourself in this country then the government takes a big sh*t on you, it's plain to see - so exactly what message does the government think its giving people moving to this country? Work Hard? - Why bother when you can sit on benefits for life (even if you hate this country -  Abu Hamza was living in a £500k house for FREE) Why bother when you can slack every day and still get half the hassle thats handed out to people who work every day and pay tax (and stealth tax) thru the nose?

It's ironic that those same older generation built upon the increase benifit systems for native Irish families Iamjack.
The whole idea of better education and healthcare of labour socialist type governments back then have come full circle due to bad decisions made by our present governments.
As for citing race hatred from anyone should have assets freezed and taken back. I have no problems with people who want to live under democracy then turn around to destroy it to be removed and banned from ever coming back to a country. In my eyes this is the worst case of Benifit fraud.

Povety gap in economics highlights this problem like you say It it better to be unemployed and get the same rewards than to graft a days hard work to feel needed and seen contributing!

[hydran]

these posts have become too long for my MTV-generation brain to follow - I quit this thread

[thegrayson]

LOL. Sorry bout that. I dont post too often here so I may have gone overboard in my enthusiasm  :cheese:

[ScutMonkey]

Live by the sword, die by the sword.  I find it ironic that the very social system most Europeans defend enthusiastically on these boards is now being complained about when immigrants abuse it.  What makes an immigrant so different from a national that they'll abuse it by living off the dole as opposed to a national?

Maybe your social systems are part of the problem?

[iamjack]

Live by the sword, die by the sword.  I find it ironic that the very social system most Europeans defend enthusiastically on these boards is now being complained about when immigrants abuse it.  What makes an immigrant so different from a national that they'll abuse it by living off the dole as opposed to a national?

Maybe your social systems are part of the problem?

Laff. True they are, but the problem most have is that the government bends over backwards to give benefits to new visitors, and making it more difficult for nationals, who may be legitimately facing difficulty, to claim them.  This extends to Blairs 'recent' push to remove disability benefits whilst healthy people who come to the UK are given no incentive to work because they literally have benefits pushed upon them from the get-go.  I'm not suggesting that truly lazy nationals arent as bad for sitting around on their arses watching Trisha, but I'm trying to remain practical - why overload a system when I'm pretty sure that many of the people who come here would prefer to earn a hard graft if the free cash and housing were not thrust in their faces right from the start?  As for those immigrants that are lazy or ciminal, why should any nation be expected to take on new citizens if they are not prepared to pull their own weight?  When it comes to the nationals that are lazy I suggest the implementation of a 'Jersey dole' solution - that is a 3 day week doing public service or no cash!  That way the UK doesnt have to sacrifice socialised benefits but the unemployed can also gain some (however minor) skills and keep them from sitting at home watching Tots Tv all day...

[Overkill]

Live by the sword, die by the sword.  I find it ironic that the very social system most Europeans defend enthusiastically on these boards is now being complained about when immigrants abuse it.  What makes an immigrant so different from a national that they'll abuse it by living off the dole as opposed to a national?

Maybe your social systems are part of the problem?

Laff. True they are, but the problem most have is that the government bends over backwards to give benefits to new visitors, and making it more difficult for nationals, who may be legitimately facing difficulty, to claim them.  This extends to Blairs 'recent' push to remove disability benefits whilst healthy people who come to the UK are given no incentive to work because they literally have benefits pushed upon them from the get-go.  I'm not suggesting that truly lazy nationals arent as bad for sitting around on their arses watching Trisha, but I'm trying to remain practical - why overload a system when I'm pretty sure that many of the people who come here would prefer to earn a hard graft if the free cash and housing were not thrust in their faces right from the start?  As for those immigrants that are lazy or ciminal, why should any nation be expected to take on new citizens if they are not prepared to pull their own weight?  When it comes to the nationals that are lazy I suggest the implementation of a 'Jersey dole' solution - that is a 3 day week doing public service or no cash!  That way the UK doesnt have to sacrifice socialised benefits but the unemployed can also gain some (however minor) skills and keep them from sitting at home watching Tots Tv all day...

Back on point................... I notice despite statistics showing that in fact the whole 'sponging immigrants' thing is a myth people are still going on about it as though it's a fact. Well, maybe to the Daily Mail yes, but in reality no.

So why persist? Because, as we go back to point 'A', that's what people want to believe. You have to be a geniune asylum seeker to get benefits in the UK, and with the current level of scrutiny thats not as easy as it's sounds. The VAST majority of immigrants come to the UK to WORK. Fact.

So why do people really moan about them? Well, as a fun look at peoples views this very morning, real people, in a real town were asked what they thought. The answers made for interesting listening. Because  basicaly the answer was simple (bloody foreigners) 'we don't want them here'. No attempt was even made by the majority to gloss it over with socio-political/cultural/economic reasons, just a simple - w*gs go home. There's nothing like a few good headlines to get people to admit their real feelings. ;-)

Can we now end all the pretence?   :coolsmile:

[hydran]

Can we now end all the pretence?   :coolsmile:

Is this your view?

[Overkill]

Can we now end all the pretence?   :coolsmile:

Is this your view?

On what Hydran? If you mean that I think people constantly hide behind a veneer of 'good reasons' when they really mean "I don't like foreigners" then yes.

Likewise, on here, the arguments have ranged along a whole barrage of what seem 'perfectly good reasons'. However, the stats don't back those arguments, they are based on what is read from the press, with a large degree of personal bias thrown in.

I have no axe to grind either way. I would love to be able to say all people are happy to work with immigrants, and any grievences are geniune and not all racialy motivated, but sadly, from long and bitter experience, both with dealing with the statistics and my own personal revulsion at far too many people attitudes, I can't.

However, people are entitled their own views on this, and I respect that, but when you see people making comments (like the ones I hear all the time at work - only stronger) like this morning, frankly I hold little hope that they are right.

[iamjack]

So why persist? Because, as we go back to point 'A', that's what people want to believe. You have to be a geniune asylum seeker to get benefits in the UK, and with the current level of scrutiny thats not as easy as it's sounds. The VAST majority of immigrants come to the UK to WORK. Fact.

So why do people really moan about them? Well, as a fun look at peoples views this very morning, real people, in a real town were asked what they thought. The answers made for interesting listening. Because  basicaly the answer was simple (bloody foreigners) 'we don't want them here'. No attempt was even made by the majority to gloss it over with socio-political/cultural/economic reasons, just a simple - w*gs go home. There's nothing like a few good headlines to get people to admit their real feelings. ;-)

Can we now end all the pretence?   :coolsmile:

Arent you twisting the issue here?  You stated initially that the majority of British people are racist, now you are stating that they are Xenophobic.  The two are seperate.  Either the issue for you is one of mindless prejudice based on racial grouping or a dislike of people hailing from differing cultural backgrounds due to previous geographic seperation.  Whereas the first is irrational and counter-productive, the second could be viewed as a fairly rational response brought about by the discomfort and nervousness people feel when confronted by the negative aspects of globalisation and erosion of their own culture.  I'm not condoning it either way, but to be frank exactly what example has this Government shown their people in this regard? The Government at home promotes total equality in respect to race, religion and nationality and yet the only bombs they have dropping since 2000 have been on non-white, non-christian, foreigners.  Hypocrisy, n'est-ce pas?