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Fontaine
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« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2006, 10:20:39 PM » |
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Escpecially such parts of ''hipos are related to whales'' I take that just as information and not evidence or truth at al, just someone came up with that and sells it to other scientists then those other scientists will agree or dismiss it but often are wrong anyways. Hmmmm... statements like this make me realize how far we yet have to go. Even if this is considered the "DNA age." Did you say this for effect, or do you really believe this? It's not that important really, it's more like giving an excuse for a big loss that may happen and with such a science statement it just doesn't seems that important, like everything is replaceable. The hippo may be in danger but so are the whales.. destroy to much but don't except that it may come back... but with saying that they just may come back since their origin are the wales...! makes me angry. I don't put to much faith in science anyways since it's mostly being used in the wrong way and not with the animal/specie in thought.. more in personal preference/profit, ''to be right'' then to actually contribute to a problem. |
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sf37
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« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2006, 10:29:01 PM » |
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Actually, the scientists that published this data are merely trying to understand evolutionary links - they make no bones about the severity of extinction (no pun intended).
The point about evolution is that anything goes if there is a selective advantage gained from having it. It might take more or less time to happen, but nothing cannot be replaced. It is a shame that currently extinction is being driven largely by human activity, but it happens and it won't be the end of things.
How is science being used in the wrong way?
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Fontaine
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« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2006, 10:37:12 PM » |
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Actually, the scientists that published this data are merely trying to understand evolutionary links - they make no bones about the severity of extinction (no pun intended).
The point about evolution is that anything goes if there is a selective advantage gained from having it. It might take more or less time to happen, but nothing cannot be replaced. It is a shame that currently extinction is being driven largely by human activity, but it happens and it won't be the end of things.
How is science being used in the wrong way? To let it be an answer for everything. It isn't... it's like examinating a car or even a human being, using stats for making a point which isn't the point. Using apes, mice, cloning, you name it! It's just ''cold'' without feeling and we go to much in that area where ''feelings'' seems less important. It's just cold & numbers, rather then being happy with what we got today and comfort the things we got. They just are how they are, not some cold facts and numbers which are in the end pretty meaningless afterall. We believe more in science then in eachothers.. or something like that. |
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sf37
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« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2006, 10:52:11 PM » |
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What a bizarre thing to say.
Firstly, the vast majority of research does not even use higher mammals. Secondly, science is about understanding things that are all around us, and our emotional state has no impact on that. We are all just animals. Even the simplest organism is a pretty amazing thing, and tremendously complex, but we are essentially a collection of molecules. By understanding that collection, we can apply it to our advantage.
I really don't think you appreciate just how much of an impact science has had on your life.
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Fontaine
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« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2006, 10:56:45 PM » |
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What a bizarre thing to say.
Firstly, the vast majority of research does not even use higher mammals. Secondly, science is about understanding things that are all around us, and our emotional state has no impact on that. We are all just animals. Even the simplest organism is a pretty amazing thing, and tremendously complex, but we are essentially a collection of molecules. By understanding that collection, we can apply it to our advantage.
I really don't think you appreciate just how much of an impact science has had on your life. I just don't believe it's making things better in the world. Sure we can understand some things better like that the world isn't flat for example. But it's more like that science is more holy then the teachings of ''love/caring''. So even when we know the world isn't flat, it just doesn't change that much! Just simple, straight, cold meaningless facts. I could care less about this knowlegde and it seems important that knowing the earth isn't flat but it's just meaningless and not important and doesn't change who or what I am or what I do. Like thinking we are more worthy, more knowing, more important. While we are basicly nothing more then a bird looking for his daily food from which he's lives. |
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sf37
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« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2006, 11:00:25 PM » |
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Do you not think electricity is pretty amazing?
Vaccinations?
Do you go to a doctor when you are ill?
You have to be kidding me. Science is not holy. What has it got to do with love/ caring?!
I might have to bail on this thread...
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Fontaine
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« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2006, 11:04:01 PM » |
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Do you not think electricity is pretty amazing?
Vaccinations?
Do you go to a doctor when you are ill?
You have to be kidding me. Science is not holy. What has it got to do with love/ caring?! When it's has become more important in your daily life then life itself and what it gives. Using apes and mice and even humans for the so called more general science importance. They are using many ppl in poor countries for medical research since it's cheaper and ppl are less ''knowing'' and even don't know for what usage they are being used. When it's in the name of science it's kinda like a good thing. |
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sf37
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« Reply #57 on: May 12, 2006, 11:06:42 PM » |
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OK, I'm leaving this thread now. I am pretty sure I am on a completely different planet to you, Fon...
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Fontaine
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« Reply #58 on: May 12, 2006, 11:12:46 PM » |
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OK, I'm leaving this thread now. I am pretty sure I am on a completely different planet to you, Fon... I'm sure I am on the same 1. I know I do got a bit extreme in things which even doesn't make much sense maybe. Most medical advancements are being done not to serve the people but often with an economical factor, the economical factor is often more important then the welbeing from humans and other living things arround us. And more holy then the biggest church.. |
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Reflex
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« Reply #59 on: May 12, 2006, 11:21:14 PM » |
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Wow did this thread go into the crapper. Look at it this way: Without science, we would all be basically hunting and gathering, starving to death in the winter and hunting species to extinction during the summer. That is what we did before the advent of reason, and reason is what founded science. I don't know about you, Fontaine, but the fact that we can sit here and philosophize at all is thanks to science.
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Fontaine
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« Reply #60 on: May 12, 2006, 11:22:33 PM » |
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Like farms. People loved their land, every day. It gave them their daily food and money for themself & others. Now big companies buy up this land and put houses on it, just cold and with numbers. And those farmers feel sad when they have to move and give up their land, their whole heart is in it but taken neverteless since it serves the economical power which is more important then the individuel which should matters more. I know this is how things are and are being done and just is daily life today but I couldn't care less or more but just makes me angry. So yes I am not from this time but from the same planet. I don't care about personal profit and so not made fit for today. And yes I hope I got the strenght to throw away this computer someday, it's infecting my daily life to much  |
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Reflex
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« Reply #61 on: May 12, 2006, 11:43:38 PM » |
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You do realize that farming without science is what they do in Africa, right? And that its basically a 14 hour day, 7 days a week, for the whole family job? Nothing 'loving' about it....
The problem here is that you imagine a truly idealized version of the world without science and capitalism, a world that never existed and never could have.....
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Fontaine
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« Reply #62 on: May 12, 2006, 11:45:46 PM » |
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You do realize that farming without science is what they do in Africa, right? And that its basically a 14 hour day, 7 days a week, for the whole family job? Nothing 'loving' about it....
The problem here is that you imagine a truly idealized version of the world without science and capitalism, a world that never existed and never could have..... Science can be good, don't get me wrong. It can serve people to make things better for us and our surroundings but mostly it's not the case or the reason. With big wars you see science rise like a flower in the spring. |
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Reflex
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« Reply #63 on: May 12, 2006, 11:50:18 PM » |
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You do realize that farming without science is what they do in Africa, right? And that its basically a 14 hour day, 7 days a week, for the whole family job? Nothing 'loving' about it....
The problem here is that you imagine a truly idealized version of the world without science and capitalism, a world that never existed and never could have..... Science can be good, don't get me wrong. It can serve people to make things better for us and our surroundings but mostly it's not the case or the reason. With big wars you see science rise like a flower in the spring. Once again, your history is not very good. War has most often prompted the greatest leaps forward in science. The wars of the 19th century are what propelled medicine to where it is today, while the wars of the 20th century gave us nuclear physics, flight, and a multitude of other applications. Without war we would certainly be considerably further back than we are today, especially in regards to medicine... |
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Fontaine
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« Reply #64 on: May 12, 2006, 11:51:09 PM » |
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You do realize that farming without science is what they do in Africa, right? And that its basically a 14 hour day, 7 days a week, for the whole family job? Nothing 'loving' about it....
The problem here is that you imagine a truly idealized version of the world without science and capitalism, a world that never existed and never could have..... Science can be good, don't get me wrong. It can serve people to make things better for us and our surroundings but mostly it's not the case or the reason. With big wars you see science rise like a flower in the spring. Once again, your history is not very good. War has most often prompted the greatest leaps forward in science. The wars of the 19th century are what propelled medicine to where it is today, while the wars of the 20th century gave us nuclear physics, flight, and a multitude of other applications. Without war we would certainly be considerably further back than we are today, especially in regards to medicine... Then you didn't read my part correctly. |
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Reflex
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« Reply #65 on: May 12, 2006, 11:53:03 PM » |
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Ah, you acknowledge that war has given rise to science. I read you backwards. However, that said, science is not the cause of war. Often though as I stated great leaps are made due to war. However such leaps are not explicitly due to the fact of the war itself, they are due to man's ingenuity at finding solutions to pressing needs. War tends to exacerbate humanity's needs, therefore more scientific advancement is accomplished. Likely anything that threatened our species would produce the same results.
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Fontaine
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« Reply #66 on: May 13, 2006, 12:08:08 AM » |
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Ah, you acknowledge that war has given rise to science. I read you backwards. However, that said, science is not the cause of war. Often though as I stated great leaps are made due to war. However such leaps are not explicitly due to the fact of the war itself, they are due to man's ingenuity at finding solutions to pressing needs. War tends to exacerbate humanity's needs, therefore more scientific advancement is accomplished. Likely anything that threatened our species would produce the same results. Good things may come from bad but that doesn't make them good, they came with with a bad cause but sure they can be usefull.. they come with a price. Everything got a price. We may loose hippo's and gain more in science but did we gain that much? You can have a f-16 but then we need a radar free f-117 to counter it. Like the heli, it can be used for medical reasons where it intented for being used for but it's also used for military strikes/power. I guess that's how life works. When it serves you, your cause it's ''good'' and usefull but that doesn't mean it's usefull or good for others. |
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Clipperjay
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« Reply #67 on: May 14, 2006, 11:30:51 PM » |
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Coming back a little to this thread I have to say a few things on the subject of endangered lists and zoos.
Zoo's are good to the point of study and how they interact which they could do so in the wild with out captivity.
The closure of Zoo's in many countries shows us a trend that people are starting to understand the joy of viewing animals is from afar not behind some cage.
Zoo's and Zoologists do there bit, but have failed to reproduce rare animal's in large numbers in captivity for realise into the wild due to habitat and costs reasons.
Fon is fighting a point which I understand no matter what animals have the same gene pools or diversify you are left with a animal that might not exist in the wild in the next 20 years?
From a compassionate view it would be a shame to lose such wilder beasts. The picture that Fon has show with the hunters upsets my sense of well-being for two reasons.
1) They didn't eat it or experiment on it for the good of man just some trophy on a mantle place probably.
2) The joy on those kids faces and as a family together hunting and the proudness, which ironically those kids in the next generation will not be able to hunt such a beast again. This statement is more of a realisation that most of the time we do not know what we do, but as for treating fellow human beings they are worse at times than animals!
How many of you would go and see a great Mammoth, a Sabre tooth tiger, even the Dodo and my favourite Leather back turtles!
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Hlafordlaes
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« Reply #68 on: May 15, 2006, 11:02:58 AM » |
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Once again, your history is not very good. War has most often prompted the greatest leaps forward in science. The wars of the 19th century are what propelled medicine to where it is today, while the wars of the 20th century gave us nuclear physics, flight, and a multitude of other applications. Without war we would certainly be considerably further back than we are today, especially in regards to medicine... I would argue this a bit differently. The three tribal power bases are (1) hunting and war-making, (2) myth and medicine, and (3) toolmaking. The (1) group are the historical chiefs, usually alpha males, and map to corporate leadership today. Their power base consists of the ability to feed and enable survival, thus they are almost always in charge. The (2) group hold sway best when stomachs are full and the threats and fears are the mysteries of the world, including sickness. In a stable agrarian or, oddly, technically advanced society, their power is greatest. Group (3) get picked on by everybody, as often what they explore may come into conflict with the other powers. Therefore, their power has traditionally depended on providing tools for the other groups, thus the grand tradition of most science being militarily funded since the time of the Greeks, with the rest in life sciences. But advances in knowledge are not strictly correlated to military activity, rather it is the implementation of theory in the form of technology that is. The 20th century advances you cite were pre-WWI and made independently of the military, for example. Science moves forward more on the basis of knowledge explosions, and these thankfully depend only on holding the alpha males and witch-doctors at bay with the odd new tool. Knowledge explosions are more likely when several socio-econ-tech conditions hold: - Available open forums that freely question established truth (Greek agora, 17th century European science institutes, this forum) - New advances in dissemination of information (papyrus adoption in Greece, printing press in Europe, internet today) - Sense of the unknown increases, unleashing curious minds (seafaring among ancients, land-based opening to Asia under the Mongols, new micro- and macro- frontiers today). The issues which I believe face us are how to continue to unleash knowledge explosions without excessive recourse to military funding (ie. species survival), and how to retain a strong sense of curiosity. The second problem is acute among young people in the world today, who are either blithe consumers of technology or ardent subscribers to myth. -Hlafordlaes |
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Vik
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« Reply #69 on: May 15, 2006, 03:27:57 PM » |
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Clip, I used to feel adversely about bullfighting, also, but then I realized how ethnocentric I was being. Then I saw it as an art, rather than a blood sport. I am sure I will never go to a bullfight, but I wouldn't go to one and root for the bull!
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Clipperjay
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« Reply #70 on: May 15, 2006, 03:52:16 PM » |
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Clip, I used to feel adversely about bullfighting, also, but then I realized how ethnocentric I was being. Then I saw it as an art, rather than a blood sport. I am sure I will never go to a bullfight, but I wouldn't go to one and root for the bull! Vik yes I understand where your coming from and I think you have put it into perspective for some extremists for your ethnocentric can be bias in both directions? I have no real joy seeing animals hurt for no good reason, but I can too appreciate the art the Matador presents it's self to a adoring crowd, which is why I don't go to Spain and protest at the foot of the Hills and I do not go and pay monies to something I do not agree with either. Bull running in Pamplona is great as some people feel what it is like to be hunted down and stuck a few times with something very sharp! |
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Vik
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« Reply #71 on: May 15, 2006, 08:35:40 PM » |
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Clip, you just reminded me of something. Do you remember a few years ago when an animal rights nut, a woman, wanted to protest the running of the bulls in Pamplona and got in the way of the run, and one of the bulls showed his gratitude by goring her several times and throwing her up in the air? She was saved, but I wonder if she feels she had it coming?
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Fontaine
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« Reply #72 on: May 15, 2006, 10:13:19 PM » |
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Just to be clear, I am not a extremist, perhaps in my thoughts. I am no fool that I go running to Africa and trying to protect them or standing with a big sign at a shopping mail.
And I am not sure IF I can do anything, perhaps I should donate some money?
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Clipperjay
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« Reply #73 on: May 15, 2006, 11:22:25 PM » |
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Clip, you just reminded me of something. Do you remember a few years ago when an animal rights nut, a woman, wanted to protest the running of the bulls in Pamplona and got in the way of the run, and one of the bulls showed his gratitude by goring her several times and throwing her up in the air? She was saved, but I wonder if she feels she had it coming? LoL nah noone deserves a spike in the kazoo except the mum in law maybe? Grand National a protestor run out on the race meet and gets mowed down now that took some balls! Fon you need to get laid man! and pray she don't look like a hippo! :cheese: |
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sf37
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« Reply #74 on: May 15, 2006, 11:27:24 PM » |
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Fon you need to get laid man! and pray she don't look like a hippo! :cheese: :lol: |
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