A great politcal figure thrown away like trash by the Dutch goverment and the people

[Fontaine]

Makes me really sad and angry.
This woman ''Hirsi Ali'' fought for what she thought was right and fighting the unjustice many moslima womans are facing in my country and many other country's and other things in which she believed was the right thing.

She was being protected daily by bodyguards (since previous evenents her life is a bit in danger) but her neighbours had a problem with this and now she must move to another location but she doesn't really want this (again!).
Then some information came in the media that she may have lied when entering this country and she may even loose her dutch nationality.

Our minister Verdonk (which deals with alien matters) first said that she would not loose her right to be dutch but later on she changed her opinion and so maybe she will loose her right to be dutch. This is probaly because if Verdonk doesn't many others could have get the same right and will be allowed to the country.

Also most people(civilians) seem to be glad she's leaving.

I think she is great and fighting for what she believes is right and with a good heart.

Hirsi ALi is now moving probaly to the USA where she will work at the American Enterprise Institute although when she will loose her right to be Dutch it could be hard.

Also the part that most dutch peope seem to be glad about this matter is the most frustating thing for me.

Not a day to be proud on my country.
It's going downhill.....

To much hatred with the people and without a great leader!
If it goes on this way and there comes some popular figure we may get a new Hitler or something.
They are just asking for this the fools. I know this is kinda over the top but there is so much frustation with the people it seems.

Sheeps without a shepherd and all to glad if they can follow someone who is saying what they want to hear.

[Nighteye]

There's 2 sides to it: one one hand she's done a few good things, and fights for a good cause (although her methods are sometimes questionable), on the other hand there's laws against discrimination and in favor of equal treatment. There's also a law saying you can't stay if admitted as a refugee in another country, as she was in Kenia. Other people in the same predicament have been expelled, some have even lost their nationality.

The question at the heart of this issue is: does she deserve special treatment for being a political figure, or for her deeds, or should she be expelled like anyone else in a similar situation would?

And that's not a question to answer quickly...

[Shagbag]

Remember Koko Petalo.

[hydran]

Isn't she the one who co-wrote the film with Leo van Gogh (the guy who was murdered in daylight by a muslin fanatic)?  If so, she needs a bodyguard.

[Fontaine]

There's 2 sides to it: one one hand she's done a few good things, and fights for a good cause (although her methods are sometimes questionable), on the other hand there's laws against discrimination and in favor of equal treatment. There's also a law saying you can't stay if admitted as a refugee in another country, as she was in Kenia. Other people in the same predicament have been expelled, some have even lost their nationality.

The question at the heart of this issue is: does she deserve special treatment for being a political figure, or for her deeds, or should she be expelled like anyone else in a similar situation would?

And that's not a question to answer quickly...

Well she was accepted and a long time ago, there is even an interview from her from many years ago telling she did used some lies to get in. I just see it as lie for your own good. Better a small lie which isn´t really hurting anyone then back there.

The media just jumps on it which makes a certain feeling and the people are all to eager to go with it.
(stemmingsmakerij)

[Fontaine]

Isn't she the one who co-wrote the film with Leo van Gogh (the guy who was murdered in daylight by a muslin fanatic)?  If so, she needs a bodyguard.

Yes and she got plenty of those. She was was protected daily by bodyguards permantaly (day&night) and with this the neighbours had a problem & won their case so she is being forced to move.

[hydran]

Yes and she got plenty of those. She was was protected daily by bodyguards permantaly (day&night) and with this the neighbours had a problem & won their case so she is being forced to move.

Well, in a way I could see the neighbour's point - if you had someone on the muslim radicals' hitlist living next to you, you would be a little concerned about them trying to mortar bomb the flat or something (because she had personal security).  Why should the neighbour's family be put at risk?

So many sides to all these stories...

[Clipperjay]

You take a stand and you live with it. Times might be hard now, they might even be even harder to come, but if more people stood up and said more things from the heart than apleasing the government or peers we wouldn't be in the trouble and strife we are today!  Concentrating upon deportation is small area of this issue, there is bigger fish to fry!

[Fontaine]

You take a stand and you live with it. Times might be hard now, they might even be even harder to come, but if more people stood up and said more things from the heart than apleasing the government or peers we wouldn't be in the trouble and strife we are today!  Concentrating upon deportation is small area of this issue, there is bigger fish to fry!

Yes true, it's always ''political correctness'' and not saying your own opinion but from the party where they are in which is killing the real sollutions which are needed to deal with our  (big) problems.

[hydran]

This particular woman needs similar protection to that offered to Salman Rushdie.  The enemies of free speech (from whatever faith group) need to be stood up to, and our government needs to protect those that do just that.

[Clipperjay]

The problem I have is that you can hijack a plane from Afganistain to London on the way pick up some
Russians then get arrested, then suddenly you have the right to stay in the UK?
Whilst legit immigrants who have lived in UK for 25 years have to pay £400 to sit an english exam who have paid taxes and have grand children? Where is the common sense in this?  Still might not get permits?

[hydran]

those afghans made a claim that they were actively trying to help women groups and educate people, and blablabla...
on the one side you cannot reward hijackers with indefinite leave to stay, but you cannot send them back to be tortured and killed.  Although in the case of Afghanistan, that is now "freed" from the Taleban, right?  So what would be the problem in returning them to Afghanistan?

Its a thorny issue, but in the end whether another 9 afghans are allowed to stay or not isnt really that big a deal.  More important is that all the manufacturing jobs in this country are being lost as production moves to Eastern Europe and Asia.  

There is a catch 22 here - we can discourage immigration by supporting less fortunate countries, but in doing so we make it more difficult for our own countries' economies.  The ugly side of capitalism is that, because the bottom line is king, multinationals will take the jobs to whereever they can get the best deal.  Maybe the best solution is to do away with border controls, and just let everyone work where the jobs and the growth is?

[Nighteye]

Well she was accepted and a long time ago, there is even an interview from her from many years ago telling she did used some lies to get in. I just see it as lie for your own good. Better a small lie which isn´t really hurting anyone then back there.

The media just jumps on it which makes a certain feeling and the people are all to eager to go with it.
(Stemmingsmakkerij)

The stance of the media can be explained by consistency. Remember the way Verdonk dealt with Taida, who was forced to leave the country before her exam, which she wanted to finish here and was only a few months away? Strict application of the rules, regardless of a large part of the people wanting her to stay for those few months at least.

The Dutch history is one of taking responsibility, owning your actions and facing the consequences of those actions. Have exceptions ever been made? Everyone is treated indiscriminately, regardless of gender, race, sexual preference, or political merit. Everyone is treated fairly, though harshly. There is something to be said for not setting a precedent by giving special treatment.

Remember also the government that took responsibility and resigned after the disaster with dutch troops in Kosovo. Regardless of the good things they'd done, they drew and faced the consequences of their decision. Not many governments have the guts to own their actions and step down when they make big mistakes - or the guts to give everyone, including those of merit and held in esteem, fair and equal treatment.

[hydran]

Stephen Fry said once that the Dutch are such a tollerant people because they sent all their nutters to South Africa!

LOL

http://www.stephenfry.com/

[Fontaine]

Well she was accepted and a long time ago, there is even an interview from her from many years ago telling she did used some lies to get in. I just see it as lie for your own good. Better a small lie which isn´t really hurting anyone then back there.

The media just jumps on it which makes a certain feeling and the people are all to eager to go with it.
(Stemmingsmakkerij)

The stance of the media can be explained by consistency. Remember the way Verdonk dealt with Taida, who was forced to leave the country before her exam, which she wanted to finish here and was only a few months away? Strict application of the rules, regardless of a large part of the people wanting her to stay for those few months at least.

The Dutch history is one of taking responsibility, owning your actions and facing the consequences of those actions. Have exceptions ever been made? Everyone is treated indiscriminately, regardless of gender, race, sexual preference, or political merit. Everyone is treated fairly, though harshly. There is something to be said for not setting a precedent by giving special treatment.

Remember also the government that took responsibility and resigned after the disaster with dutch troops in Kosovo. Regardless of the good things they'd done, they drew and faced the consequences of their decision. Not many governments have the guts to own their actions and step down when they make big mistakes - or the guts to give everyone, including those of merit and held in esteem, fair and equal treatment.

Yes it's all correct according the rules but in this case I say throw away those rules!
As if other people don't lie for their own good! Everyone who ever lied please leave this country. I'm sure most would make a ''lie for bestwill'' when in the same situation.

I think it's dangerous to apply all those so called rules over all those people.
Like putting a hakenkrauz on them saying sorry you must go there, I know it isn't exactly like this although...I just hate rules that apply for all on very personal&emotional matters.
She proved already she is a worthy citizen, what more could there be then this to earn this right?

[Fontaine]

Also it's has been long ago. Lots of changed the last few years and rules where made tougher!
Those decisions where made back then and not today so don't look at today's rules!?

[Nighteye]

It's not about the rules themselves - they are not perfect, and maybe should be further revised. It's about fair application of those rules, about not showing favouritism. Sometimes sacrifices must be made in the name of fairness and equal treatment. No privileges, which makes it harder to abuse power.

[Fontaine]

It's not about the rules themselves - they are not perfect, and maybe should be further revised. It's about fair application of those rules, about not showing favouritism. Sometimes sacrifices must be made in the name of fairness and equal treatment. No privileges, which makes it harder to abuse power.

Ok but it's history, it's not a today issue! She's living here many years with a dutch passport.
90% from all immigrants/refugees have lied when coming here.

[Clipperjay]

Nigheye wasn't Holland founded on its liberal system? Why would fairness over turn common sense?

[Fontaine]

Nigheye wasn't Holland founded on its liberal system? Why would fairness over turn common sense?

It was. But that is history, ppl want hard rules where they blaim the crimes and other social problems on all those immigrants, they say they don't maybe but it was no miracle Fortuyn became so popular.

[Nighteye]

Nigheye wasn't Holland founded on its liberal system? Why would fairness over turn common sense?

Humanity and the capacity for humane decisions got buried somewhere beneath the bureaucracy. Too many rules, some of them inspired by fear.

The rules need to be changed, simplified and restored to be humane. But for that, we need more left in the government.

[Shagbag]

Not a day to be proud on my country.
It’s going downhill.....

I cannot help but think of the irony in this.  De Nederlands is as flat as een pannekoek.

[Fontaine]

Not a day to be proud on my country.
It’s going downhill.....

I cannot help but think of the irony in this.  De Nederlands is as flat as een pannekoek.

When we do roll we go right into the North sea

We got a few hills in Limburg though!

[Fontaine]

I still have hope after watching the second chamber (2e kamer) debate about this and it seems that everyone has another opinion and I am sure now she will keep her dutch nationality, well almost.

Seems everyone is behind ali after all. (the goverment, the ppl I am not sure)
I hope the rules doesn't win from the feeling and it seems like that. To be continued.

This is great because the rules where to hard and I think that after this they will look differently with alien matters after this matter which is always a personal matter and not about the rules which overshadows the person in matter which isn't the point.

Now Verdonk must give her repsonse, she's positioned in a corner.
Or she stays harderened at her position or maybe she finnaly she her own errors or even she may give up her position. I am really not sure what she's going to say or do.

Even from bad things good things may come and that's my hope.

OK update, Verdonk isn't saying anything really and she just keeping her harsch line. The whole 2e kamer is like saying there is more room and she's saying I will look if there is more room but she made her disision already in her mind and not really willing to change her verdict and really willing to change her opinion. She doesn't want to and it seems she's just not willing.
Damn Verdonk. Good thing nobody likes her really now.

[Shagbag]

I read that Hirsi Ali has now resigned from the lower house and looks forward to living in the USA.  It is a shame that someone who is prepared to stand up to the not-so-nice-parts of Islam is ultimately treated in this way.  That said, however, she lied on her passport application.  She has admitted to this.  Why she lied at the time of her application, I do not know.  But you do not lie on your passport application.  No one likes liars, especially the Dutch.