Kubuntu/Ubuntu - installed over the weekend. Not impressed

[ScutMonkey]

For a bit of historical reference, this is the third time I've tried to migrate off some form of Windows and onto some form of Linux.  The first time was off Windows 98 to Red Hat.  No go, I had never touched a Unix/Linux box in my life and I felt completely lost.  The second time was from Windows 2000 (I think) to Mandrake 8.0.  Excellent install.  Everything went easy and I even got a samba share of my mp3 collection onto my home network.  Luckily I had been working on HP-UX and Sun Solaris for a few years by this point.  I could scoot around various config files with vi and get things done.  Then I tried to setup an ftp server and it all fell apart.  At the end of the day I really didn't DO anything with the server so I just took it down.  I played a large variety of games and had 4-5 years worth of emails on Outlook so I just didn't want to bother because it was too big a pain.  Moreover, I found a freeware FTP program for windows that was GUI based and much easier to use.  There really wasn't anything I needed linux for since Windows 2000 was extremely stable.  Combine that with a work schedule around 55-60 hours a week and I just didn't have time to spend making a linux box do 90% of what a Windows box could do for me while spending inordinate amounts of time getting it to run.

So now it's 2007 and my computing lifestyle has changed dramatically.  There's only one PC game I play regularly, World of Warcraft, which has "excellent" support in WineX if I'm using an Nvidia card.  I've converted to gmail, so I could basically use any browser to do mail.  Open Office will do word processing for me on the very rare occasions I need it.  And lastly, for those few pesky tasks I need to do on Windows and Windows only (my contractor's website will on run on IE) I have my work laptop to take care of those.  So now's the time, right?

Ok, so everyone out there is raving about the new Ubuntu version of linux.  Mandrake has gone by the wayside because it's turned into Mandriva and become a pay linux version as near as I can tell, meaning if you really want to do anything with it, you're much better off paying for support.  No thanks, that's what I have windows for.  So I'm looking at Ubuntu and doing some research and low and behold there's KDE GUI interface for proftp!  Hooray!  So I figure I'll go off and try Kubuntu (the KDE version of Ubuntu).  

First thing, I install Kubuntu.  Download it to my windows box and burn a live cd.  Go to install it, and I'm getting errors loading the CD.  Hmmmm....so I do some research on the error (Remember through all of this that I kept my original windows system intact so I could browse websites for help).  Turns out there are alot of support problems for various CD/DVD ROM drives.  So I shuttle through the 6 CD ROM drives in my house and find one that loads the live CD without errors.  Kubuntu loads and I'm taking a look.  Looks nice and clean.  I'm happy with it, so now it's time to install my video card.  I use the build in KDE video card management/drivers but hmmmmm...my resolutions are all wrong, my refresh rates are all wrong, and no 3D.  I'm not surprised and was expecting this.  Who installs a windows system and uses the default Nvidia drivers?  No one.  So I go out to nvidia's site and download the latest Linux drivers (which are actually the only set which will work for my nvidia 8600GT - I bought a new video card just for this system because I was previously an ATI man).  So I got to install and find out I have to shutdown X.  Fine, sudo /etc/init.d/kdm stop.  Doesn't work, system locks up, reboot.  So then I just go to console from the start menu and that works.  I go to install the nvidia drivers but it appears I'm missing some packages.  Ok...so I do a websearch for my errors and it appears there are several packages not included in the default Kubutu/Ubuntu install which I have to install.  Fine, command line apt-get install "package names."  I finally get all of the packages installed, get the nvidia driver to install, and then try to do an init to go back to desktop.  Oops, the Ubuntu got rid of the standard inittab and stuff and did a nonstandard eventtab thing.  The init codes are completely different.  Even better, the init codes for Ubuntu are not the same as the init codes for Kubuntu, so I can toss that portion of the Nvidia install guide right out the window.  Lovely.  F' It.  I just do a cntrl-alt-del and reboot.  System won't come up...at all.  I can only go into emergency command line mode or whatever by hitting esc at the startup.  Not knowing the first thing on troubleshooting a video card issue in Linux (Unix servers don't use 3D video cards so I've never futzed with one before), I reinstall Kubuntu from scratch and go over a nvidia video card installation guide I find on the find on the Ubuntu forums.  After dl'ing all the packages again and doing the nvidia install and modifying the appropriate files....dead Kubuntu system again.  F' this.  I'll just install Ubuntu since there's better support.  I don't really need FTP anyway, it was just a bonus.  Day 1 is gone.  I've spent hours and hours on my Saturday with this.  Ubuntu will have to wait for Sunday.

So on to Ubuntu.  I load that sucker up and I notice it takes MUCH, MUCH longer to install.  There are way more packages in the default install and in total it's around 5 gigs.  But guess what?  The "build essential" package needed to install the only video card drivers which will allow you to play modern video games?  Nope.  Luckily there's actually a decent synaptic package search engine in the GUI.  Cool.  Ubuntu also uses Firefox as the default browser which is nice and familiar - but slow as molasses to start up.  Anyway, I'm digging the desktop, except for the colors, but I can change those easily enough.  So I install the package I need and head for command line...except I can't get there from the start menu.  Ok, open a terminal window and do a sudo /etc/init.d/gdm stop.  I get the command line log that stuff is shutting down and it hangs on running rc.local scripts.  Hmmm, so I reboot and look at /etc/rc.local and there's exactly one line, exit 0, which should do exactly nothing.  So I boot into emergency command line mode and try a telinit 3.  Nope, instead of going into command line like it does on Kubuntu, it goes to the desktop as I described above.  So then I try sudo /etc/init.d/gdm stop again from a terminal window.  The GUI shuts down and hangs the same way...so on a whim, seeing something in one of the billion of webpages I've looked at so far I do a cntrl-alt-return and viola!  I get a command line I can login to.  So I install the nvidia drivers.  I don't even try to go back into the desktop from command line.  I just reboot.  I login and there's an Nvidia splash screen!  Good sign and then I get into the desktop.  I run the command to make sure 3D is enabled.  It is!  Wow, so then I go to adjust my refresh rate because I can see the tell tale flicker of a below 70hz refresh rate.  Sure enough it's set at 50hz...and there are no other settings.  So I do some research and it appears it didn't detect my monitor correctly so I have to modify the xorg.conf file.  I edit as the guide says and now I can change the refresh rate to 50, 51, 54, and 55.  Um....no.  So finally I figure out from copious amounts of reading that I can use the nvidia-settings program that comes with the drivers to change my monitor settings.  This is not recommended, but screw it.  I have a massive headache from looking at the monitor at this point.  I'm fixing it damnit.  Thank god it works.

(cont. in next post)

[ScutMonkey]

So now I'm at the point today where I get to move on to the next phase.  Installing WineX and then WoW.  I'm not really all that confident anymore.  I still have yet to check and make sure I've got sound either.  Here's my take on Ubuntu Linux...

It's not newbie friendly - contrary to popular linux zealot's beliefs.  Windows isn't easy, but it's got a ton more point and click functionality in it than Ubuntu.  Installing the nvidia drivers for basic 3D functionality is a nightmare.  Not installing the drivers isn't much better as you can't get a refresh rate above 60hz or a resolution above 800x600.  The default "nv" driver just to get basic 2D functionality and decent refresh rates didn't work for me.  Sometimes the point and click menu from Ubuntu works, sometimes it doesn't.  Moreover, I had to delete references to the basic "nv" driver in config files when I installed the correct nvidia driver so there wouldn't be conflicts.  What a mess.  Whenever something doesn't work in the GUI you're off to edit files.  Ugly, obscure, config files full of all sorts of text.

1.  If you don't know how to use sudo, don't load Ubuntu.  I've been using sudo for access for years so it's not foreign to me.  It's great for security and the Ubuntu implementation of it is amazing compared to a typical Sun or HP-UX install but yeah...it's going to confuse the hell out of real newbs.
2.  If you don't know how to use a text editor like vi (I've been using vi for years), emacs, nano, etc, don't load Ubuntu or be prepared to spend a while learning how.
3.  If you don't like digging around a million text files, don't load Ubuntu or linux for that matter.  I don't see that the other distros are much better.
4.  If you don't understand the philosophy behind apt-get, don't load Ubuntu.  Apt-get is an awesome utility, but it's not exactly intuitive.  The GUI package loader in Ubuntu is pretty damn nice though, if you know what you're searching for.  But again, none of this is going to be intuitive to a true newbie.  It's just that I'm familiar with pkgadd and swinstall (ok, not quite the same thing) so it came pretty quickly to me.  Oh, but it's also Debian distro exclusive so if you run Red Hat, go learn about RPM.  Other distros have their own way of managing packages too.

I love command line for some things.  I do not like people who believe GUI is useless or command line is useless.  They're both good at some things and bad at others so the best thing is a mixed environment - which is why I don't feel totally lost in Ubuntu.  However, I tried to imagine my wife - who is an internet veteran but a computer neophyte - trying to manage a linux box and I cringe at the thought.  I'm starting to see that linux's "we never have to reboot!" attitude is getting in the way of being user friendly.  I understand the concept and reasoning behind shutting down X to install a video driver (so you don't have to reboot the box) but this is a total nightmare to explain to a newbie and even worse, doesn't even work well in various forms of linux apparently.  It would just be easier all the way around to download the drivers, install the drivers, and then reboot.  Linux still relies far too heavily on command line for tasks which would be much simpler.

I also have gripes against the way Ubuntu has gone against the inittab standards.  I really don't have any understanding of why Ubuntu would do this.  It makes zero sense to throw out all of that default documentation to implement something which isn't standardized and doesn't appear to be broken.  And why can I do a telinit 2 in Kubuntu and get to a command line login but when I do it in Ubuntu it goes to the GUI?  Consistency please?  Grrrrrr....

So yeah, I'm going to forge ahead at this point and see where it takes me.  My to do list before I feel I can format my windows box and rebuild it for my wife's use (it's a hardware upgrade over hers) is this:

1.  Make sure my sound is working.
2.  Get WineX to work.
3.  Get WoW to work in WineX
4.  Get Ventrilo to work in WineX (if this is even possible - have yet to research).
5.  Make sure I can listen to all my music and watch all my videos (this could take a while because a lot of the linux hacks to watch various video formats aren't exactly "legal.")

I may even see if I can import all my old archived outlook email into Evolution or something similar.  Not sure.   Since I'm at the office all week, I don't even know how much time I'll get to mess with this.  Wish me luck.  This could take a while.

[Maturin]

I'm a linux newbie and liking the latest Ubuntu. I have it on my Thinkpad R40 with little trouble. All I do with it is browse the internet and play media, and it works fine for that and I HAVENT HAD TO TOUCH THE COMMAND LINE

The specific graphics adapter in the R40 is not supported by ati drivers or open sauce drivers, so I havent even tried to get it working.

The codec install is painless compared to earlier versions. It basically pops up saying "This codec might be illegal in your country/region. Do you want to download it?" Excellent.

Updates work fine, add/remove and synaptic work fine, network manager works fine for me.

All I need

[ScutMonkey]

I'm a linux newbie and liking the latest Ubuntu. I have it on my Thinkpad R40 with little trouble. All I do with it is browse the internet and play media, and it works fine for that and I HAVENT HAD TO TOUCH THE COMMAND LINE

The specific graphics adapter in the R40 is not supported by ati drivers or open sauce drivers, so I havent even tried to get it working.

The codec install is painless compared to earlier versions. It basically pops up saying "This codec might be illegal in your country/region. Do you want to download it?" Excellent.

Updates work fine, add/remove and synaptic work fine, network manager works fine for me.

All I need

Yes, I suspect that if that's all I used mine for as well I'd be in much better shape.  I'd still have issues getting the video drivers to work though.  I'm just not going to let at a monitor which can do 1280x at 75hz sit at the default 800x and 60hz settings.  That's ridiculous.

[Shagbag]

To restart X, you don't have to stop the kdm or gdm init script.  Simply close everything, logout and once you get the KDM/GDM login screen hit ctrl+alt+backspace.  You'll get a black screen for a second or two, then the KDM/GDM login screen will come up again.  If it doesn't, then there's probably something wrong with your /etc/X11/xorg.conf file.  To see what it is, look at the/var/log/Xorg.0.log file.  Remember (from your Solaris/HPUX days) that UNIX is case sensitive so it's Xorg.0.log not xorg.0.log.  Xorg.0.log is a big file.  If you just want to see the errors then type:

Code:

cat /var/log/Xorg.0.log | grep "EE"

.

The nVidia proprietary driver is packaged with an app that should allow you to adjust your screen resolution without resorting to a ModeLine in your /etc/X11/xorg.conf file.   You may need to install that app from the repos using synaptic.

PS.  Contrary to what people say, windoze is not newbie friendly.  What's a virus and how can it possibly run amok on my system files if I simply click on it - doesn't windoze have any security?  What are these silly 3-digit extensions at the end of every file for - haven't these people heard of file headers?  Where does it keep its /var/log/Xorg.0.log file so that I can pinpoint my graphics errors?  WTF is this thing called a 'Registry'?  Why can't things be configured with simple, plain english, text files?  What's this thing called 'defragmentation' I hear about on my hard drive?  What d'ya mean I've only got one GUI - who said that and why do they get to choose how I want my PC's interface to look?  How do I check to make sure these binaries I'm running don't contain any faulty or malicious code?  Why do I have to wait 6 years for a new release?

My point is this: any operating system will seem foreign to someone coming from a different background, just like the Earth would seem really wierd to an alien coming from Mars.  You always have to shed the baggage from your old operating system to learn a new OS.  There's a reason why UNIX is popular.

[ScutMonkey]

To restart X, you don't have to stop the kdm or gdm init script.  Simply close everything, logout and once you get the KDM/GDM login screen hit ctrl+alt+backspace.  You'll get a black screen for a second or two, then the KDM/GDM login screen will come up again.  If it doesn't, then there's probably something wrong with your /etc/X11/xorg.conf file.  To see what it is, look at the/var/log/Xorg.0.log file.  Remember (from your Solaris/HPUX days) that UNIX is case sensitive so it's Xorg.0.log not xorg.0.log.  Xorg.0.log is a big file.  If you just want to see the errors then type:

Code:

cat /var/log/Xorg.0.log | grep "EE"

.

I did look at the various logs I was pointed to (not sure if that was one of them) and most of the errors I saw either lead me to pages I mentioned above or were a dead end.

The nVidia proprietary driver is packaged with an app that should allow you to adjust your screen resolution without resorting to a ModeLine in your /etc/X11/xorg.conf file.   You may need to install that app from the repos using synaptic.

That's what I eventually ended up using even though I got tons of warnings not to because it would allow me to use settings which my monitor did support and could therefore damage it.  MUCH easier to use though.

PS.  Contrary to what people say, windoze is not newbie friendly.  What's a virus and how can it possibly run amok on my system files if I simply click on it - doesn't windoze have any security?  What are these silly 3-digit extensions at the end of every file for - haven't these people heard of file headers?  Where does it keep its /var/log/Xorg.0.log file so that I can pinpoint my graphics errors?  WTF is this thing called a 'Registry'?  Why can't things be configured with simple, plain english, text files?  What's this thing called 'defragmentation' I hear about on my hard drive?  What d'ya mean I've only got one GUI - who said that and why do they get to choose how I want my PC's interface to look?  How do I check to make sure these binaries I'm running don't contain any faulty or malicious code?  Why do I have to wait 6 years for a new release?

Several of the things you've pointed out are not things a newbie is going to question.  Some are misleading.  Windows has virus' because it's the OS that is used by people who aren't careful.  That's why there's been a rise in Mac virus' the last few years.  Linux would get more if it was more popular.  I know that Solaris and HP-UX get dozens upon dozens of security updates every quarter.

The familiar 3-digit extensions can be turned off in Windows XP so as not to "confuse."  And I don't think it's any easier in Linux when you can have any extension anywhere you want.  And newbs aren't going to know what a file header is.  

WTF is a Registry = WTF is a Kernel.  That's a wash.

Logging is probably my biggest gripe about windows.  It's atrocious.  It's unbelievable how bad it is (and is at least partially a result of how bad their command line interface is).  But again, that's not a gripe a newb is going to have.  Why?  Because the average newb user is going to post their error popup on a message board or plug it into google to figure out a problem.  

Plain English text files?  You mean like xorg.conf?  Ummmm, no.  That's not easy for the average user to read because it's full of technical data and jargon they're not going to know how to interpret.  

Multiple GUIs is a matter of taste.  I've never stopped using the basic Windows classic GUI, frankly.  I switch back to it when I'm on XP.  

My point is this: any operating system will seem foreign to someone coming from a different background, just like the Earth would seem really wierd to an alien coming from Mars.  You always have to shed the baggage from your old operating system to learn a new OS.  There's a reason why UNIX is popular.

Right but I've lived extensively in both worlds now since 1998.  I'm not saying Windows is perfect.  Far from it.  Every time I have to do something "serverish" on Windows steam comes out of my ears.  Windows is just a crappy option in the enterprise world - but it's dirt cheap so people keep on buying it.

But on desktop?  It is much easier for me to be on the phone telling someone to click this button and that button than it is to try to explain the arcane syntax associated with editing a file.  I'm trying to imagine explaining to my father "well something's wrong with your video card drivers so we need to do a sudo vi /etc/X11/xorg.conf and dig around in there."  That's just not going to happen.

[Shagbag]

I disagree.  The questions I posed are exactly the sort of questions an experienced UNIX user would pose when coming to windoze for the first time.  There are other UNIX 'newbies' - eg. Mum, Dad and Sis - but they don't experience ANY of the problems you've had.  They just buy their OS pre-installed from Dell and they don't meddle with it until they buy a new PC after 3-5 years later.  It runs like a dream for them and they don't experience any of the viruses and malware you get with windoze.  This leads to another point.  I don't buy the 'security by obscurity' line.  That's M$ FUD.  UNIX has been around since the 70s and linux has been around since the 90s.  Both have had a significant presence in the server space for a long time now yet the viruses aren't there.  Why? Because you can do a damn site more damage with a virus on a windoze platform than you can on a UNIX platform.  Largely it boils down to privileges and who the default user is.

I really do get sick and tired of people complaining about how linux is not newbie-friendly for one reason or another when those very reasons all have to do with the 'baggage' those newbies carry over from windoze.  Windoze is just as newbie 'unfriendly' to non-windoze users.  In part, that's why it's largely failed in the server space.  Why is it a success on the Desktop?  To answer that, you have to look at the economics of a monopoly, not the technology.

[Reflex]

I can write a script that will delete all files of a certain type in user space on Unix, mail it to millions of users with the title "nude Britney pics" and even if those users were running Linux, they'd be completely vulnerable to thier own stupidity.  And it would be far more damaging to lose thier documents than to simply have thier PC taken over by a rootkit that will simply turn it into an SMTP server for spam.

By locking down the administrative side you simply make the target the user space.  I feel this is going to be the next big attack vector due to Vista locking things down in a Unix like fashion.  From a user perspective, there is NOTHING more important than my data.  A user dosen't give a damn about the OS itself being vulnerable, that can be reinstalled.  Re-doing your taxes for the past six years, thats REAL damage.

[Shagbag]

I don't think may UNIX users would fall for that one, but I accept your argument about the damage being confined to directories and files that the user has write privileges for.  I also agree that there is no substitute for regular backups and hard copies of key data (even CDs and DVDs degrade over time).  Your script just wouldn't work on any default OpenBSD install for a number of reasons.

Rootkits are difficult - though not impossible - to detect with any OS.  While installing an OS that takes up < 2GB of disk space is a minor inconvenience, re-installing 15GB of hard drive space with the added annoyance of 'product re-activation' is a PITA in anyone's book.  Virtualisation provides some protection, but then some proprietary OSes prohibit virtualisation under their EULA.  Virtualisation, of course, is no protection against 'the blue pill'.

Vista may be more UNIX-like, but then how many security-clueless Vista users haven't disabled "that damned annoying UAC"?  More to the point: how many end users have actually bought Vista?

[ScutMonkey]

I disagree.  The questions I posed are exactly the sort of questions an experienced UNIX user would pose when coming to windoze for the first time.  There are other UNIX 'newbies' - eg. Mum, Dad and Sis - but they don't experience ANY of the problems you've had.  They just buy their OS pre-installed from Dell and they don't meddle with it until they buy a new PC after 3-5 years later.  It runs like a dream for them and they don't experience any of the viruses and malware you get with windoze.  This leads to another point.  I don't buy the 'security by obscurity' line.  That's M$ FUD.  UNIX has been around since the 70s and linux has been around since the 90s.  Both have had a significant presence in the server space for a long time now yet the viruses aren't there.  Why? Because you can do a damn site more damage with a virus on a windoze platform than you can on a UNIX platform.  Largely it boils down to privileges and who the default user is.

I really do get sick and tired of people complaining about how linux is not newbie-friendly for one reason or another when those very reasons all have to do with the 'baggage' those newbies carry over from windoze.  Windoze is just as newbie 'unfriendly' to non-windoze users.  In part, that's why it's largely failed in the server space.  Why is it a success on the Desktop?  To answer that, you have to look at the economics of a monopoly, not the technology.

First of all, you're going to have to suck up and deal with the baggage.  I can't think of one person I know in my entire family or any of my friends that doesn't use a Windows box at home or work.  Windows has so saturated the market that it's the reality you MUST deal with if you want a paradigm shift in desktop computing.  Period.  My mom HATES working on computers.  Can't STAND it, but she has no choice.  That's the reality of having a job in today's world.  You have to work on a computer and you almost definitely have to use Windows.

Secondly no, it's a pain in the server space (and I manage backups for a 1700+ client HP UX, Sun Solaris, Windows 2000/2003 server environment) because the vast majority of tools out there are designed with Unix in mind and Windows traditionally hasn't adapted well (and in some cases at all).  I'm not talking baggage in learning, I'm talking about the way a scheduling application interfaces with Windows or a backup tool - Windows MUST allow more command line versatility in this space.  You combine this with the fact that Windows still doesn't have a solid way of managing attached storage (SCSI or Fiber tape and disk) compared to Unix, and they're got an uphill battle.  Although, if scanning the bus on Windows worked like it did on HP-UX - which is to say, without fail - Windows would be in great shape on the storage side of things.  That being said, I see far more Windows servers moving into my various client datacenters every day compared to Unix (and I hate it).  Moreover, every version of Windows in the server space gets better with their command line and that's exactly what they should do.  Suck it up and make it better.

The reason why Windows is a success on the desktop is that it's easier to get around.  Apple was all over Windows up until the point that Windows got a GUI and then decided not to go after a closed hardware model like Apple.  Linux is still full of anti-GUI biggots who feel the command line is just the best way to do things and while they're doing a better job at freeing themselves of that mindset to some extent, it's still there far too much.  I should NEVER have to resort to shutting down X and going to command line to install a driver on my desktop.  A desktop is far too uncomplicated a machine for this to be necessary and yet...there it is.  If you really want me to, I'll setup two blank computers, one with Windows XP and one with any flavor of Linux you'd like.  I'll then try to walk my mother, father, or wife through installing the 3D video card driver on the machine.  I will tell them exactly which commands to run or buttons to click and then ask them which one they thought was harder.

Instead of insulting "Windoze" and complaining about what people like about it, why don't you listen and see if they have a valid argument, because honestly, sometimes they do.  Either that or get used to being a niche desktop because that's where you'll stay forever (and that isn't necessarily a bad thing).

[ScutMonkey]

I don't think may UNIX users would fall for that one, but I accept your argument about the damage being confined to directories and files that the user has write privileges for.  I also agree that there is no substitute for regular backups and hard copies of key data (even CDs and DVDs degrade over time).  Your script just wouldn't work on any default OpenBSD install for a number of reasons.

Current ones?  No.  Future ones if Linux makes a dent in the desktop marketplace?  Yes.  In 10 years of using Windows I have never once had a trojan, virus, anything.  Why?  Because I don't open emails or attachments which look dangerous.  Because I don't browse nefarious websites.  Because I pay attention to what I'm doing.  Because I'm an educated user in the computer field.  The vast majority of users who get hit by this stuff are people who are uneducated computer users and they will always be uneducated regardless of platform.  They don't care because the computer is a means to an end, not something to pour time an energy into managing.  "Security clueless vista users" will turn into "Security clueless linux users" and the same problem will exist.

Rootkits are difficult - though not impossible - to detect with any OS.  While installing an OS that takes up < 2GB of disk space is a minor inconvenience, re-installing 15GB of hard drive space with the added annoyance of 'product re-activation' is a PITA in anyone's book.  Virtualisation provides some protection, but then some proprietary OSes prohibit virtualisation under their EULA.  Virtualisation, of course, is no protection against 'the blue pill'.

I backup machines with a couple terabytes of user data (33tbs of data is my largest).  15gbs is a joke and product activation doesn't exist with a enterprise license.  BTW, checkdisk is a ton of fun on a 1tb LUN, hehe.

Anyway, guess what every major disaster I've recovered from has been the result of?  User fat fingering or a hardware failure (plus poor design - you should never lose data on a modern server if designed correctly - even a windows box).  I have never once had to recover data because of a trojan or virus.  

Vista may be more UNIX-like, but then how many security-clueless Vista users haven't disabled "that damned annoying UAC"?  More to the point: how many end users have actually bought Vista?

Vista doesn't do anything right now that I can't get accomplished with Windows XP.  That's why most users haven't moved to it.  There's no compelling reason.  My XP box stays up for months on end and has stable efficient home networking.  Those were my last two Windows 98 complaints and now that they've been solved, there's really nothing else I need for MS to improve upon from a home user standpoint.  You may think I'm joking, but the only time my XP box comes down is a power outage or a hardware failure.

[VorLonUK]

Vista doesn’t do anything right now that I can’t get accomplished with Windows XP.  That’s why most users haven’t moved to it.  There’s no compelling reason.  My XP box stays up for months on end and has stable efficient home networking.  Those were my last two Windows 98 complaints and now that they’ve been solved, there’s really nothing else I need for MS to improve upon from a home user standpoint.  You may think I’m joking, but the only time my XP box comes down is a power outage or a hardware failure.

I totally agree.

I have Vista premium on a new Dell 6400 laptop and it's got to be a step backwards for Microsoft. It has 3 times the amount of running processes as XP does.

Just goes to show that when you have a monopoly and no native competition, that you can sit back and produce what you want.

[Shagbag]

Just goes to show that when you have a monopoly and no native competition, that you can sit back and produce what you want.

Agreed.  Let's hope OpenXML doesn't go anywhere or the monopoly will continue.

[Reflex]

Vista doesn’t do anything right now that I can’t get accomplished with Windows XP.  That’s why most users haven’t moved to it.  There’s no compelling reason.  My XP box stays up for months on end and has stable efficient home networking.  Those were my last two Windows 98 complaints and now that they’ve been solved, there’s really nothing else I need for MS to improve upon from a home user standpoint.  You may think I’m joking, but the only time my XP box comes down is a power outage or a hardware failure.

I totally agree.

I have Vista premium on a new Dell 6400 laptop and it's got to be a step backwards for Microsoft. It has 3 times the amount of running processes as XP does.

Just goes to show that when you have a monopoly and no native competition, that you can sit back and produce what you want.

Um, reading your thread on that topic, most other users with Vista had half or less the running processes you had.  Most everyone agreed that it was your Dell preinstallation that was the problem.  My system, for instance, only has 63 running processes right now, and thats with nearly a dozen apps open, plus virus scanner and other TSR's active(and yes, I hit 'see processes from all users).  Thats barely more than my XP laptop would have in this situation.

[Intuit]

I appreciate Linux because it is free.  The kind of quality afforded is for the price, is wonderful.
For several reasons it's comparing apples and oranges, but put the two head-to-head and charge for them both... I'd pick XP.

I totally agree.

I have Vista premium on a new Dell 6400 laptop and it’s got to be a step backwards for Microsoft. It has 3 times the amount of running processes as XP does.

Just goes to show that when you have a monopoly and no native competition, that you can sit back and produce what you want.

I think it just goes to show that maybe they shot themselves in the foot over the years, giving away some of which should've been sold with the next release.  They weren't just updating security all these years, but functionality as well.  Cisco for example tried to make me acquire a freak'n service contract when all I wanted to do was download a lousy software update on one of their firewall appliances.  If Microsoft hadn't set that presidence for free updates, I might've well gone along with it and paid them.  After all, those updates didn't come to either of them for free, it wasn't included in their original product and it wasn't necessarily defective.  All it did was fix a few flaws, fix a JAVA incompatibility and add some functionality.  Sound familiar ?  Microsoft doesn't charge for that, you get way more than just a firewall appliance and somehow their product (WinXP Home) costs the same or less.  Amazing.

............ What are these silly 3-digit extensions at the end of every file for - haven’t these people heard of file headers?  Where does it keep its /var/log/Xorg.0.log file so that I can pinpoint my graphics errors?  WTF is this thing called a ‘Registry’?  Why can’t things be configured with simple, plain english, text files?  What’s this thing called ‘defragmentation’ I hear about on my hard drive?  What d’ya mean I’ve only got one GUI - who said that and why do they get to choose how I want my PC’s interface to look?  How do I check to make sure these binaries I’m running don’t contain any faulty or malicious code?  Why do I have to wait 6 years for a new release? .............

Several non-arguments here that weren't addressed already.

The Registry is genious because it is central and simple.  I fondly remember the days of Windows 3.1 and using various text editors to go through zillions of INI files, mostly stored under windir but also under zillions of other directories, per program.  (and many config files didn't have the INI extension or similar formatting)  Additionally the numerous tiny files make inefficient use of the filesystem and harddrive resources.  Initially and conceptually, I didn't like the move to the registry with Win95 but once I found it's layout to pretty intuitive it made complete sense and I never missed the INI system once all the programs in use had completely migrated.

Also, the file extensions are a great idea because I can sort files by that extension.  If windows strictly used headers the alternative would be that it would have to instruct the harddrive to jump from one sector to the other to read each and every file before it could make a determination on how to sort them; and sorting needs to be done each time the directory is pulled for viewing.  To see what I mean, go to the System32 directory and try to sort files by their description, file version, or some other criterea that requires that they be accessed.  Takes forever don't it.   Of course this kind of data could be easily cached but the reality is, using file extensions as a prerequisite is fine.  When the file actually has to be executed (or read anyway for other info, such as icon data), then it makes sense to take the header info into consideration.  If the header doesn't match the extension type, then a simple warning should be displayed prior to executing it or passing it to the associated program(s).

That said I actually get a kick out of digging around in configuration files and while the directory layout in Ubuntu is mostly intuitive, the filenames themselves are anything but... at least to native English speakers.  It is an international collaboration after all.  But anyway, that's not to knock Linux... it's a great addition to the family for the price and a useful tool.

[ScutMonkey]

See, because I'm in backup and recovery I hate the registry and would MUCH rather see a linux/unix type binary library system implemented on Windows.  I'm frequently dealing with issues on Windows boxes where I can recover all the binaries and data on the windows box, but since I can't get a copy of most recent registry it's pretty much useless.

And why can't I get a backup of the registry?  Because it's open when the server is up.  It's a catch-22.  You can't backup an open file, but you can't shut off the registry.  What you have to do is use a native Windows utility to export the registry to a directory and then back that directory up.  Unfortunately, this takes a level of timing and cooperation which is extremely difficult in the enterprise world.

[Intuit]

See, because I'm in backup and recovery I hate the registry and would MUCH rather see a linux/unix type binary library system implemented on Windows.  I'm frequently dealing with issues on Windows boxes where I can recover all the binaries and data on the windows box, but since I can't get a copy of most recent registry it's pretty much useless.

And why can't I get a backup of the registry?  Because it's open when the server is up.  It's a catch-22.  You can't backup an open file, but you can't shut off the registry.  What you have to do is use a native Windows utility to export the registry to a directory and then back that directory up.  Unfortunately, this takes a level of timing and cooperation which is extremely difficult in the enterprise world.

http://www.snapfiles.com/reviews/ERUNT/erunt.html

It places the most recent copy of the file right where you can freely access it.  No complaints.

Also, past, successful I might add, attempts to recover by manually transplanting files from the SystemRestore, "System Volume Information" directory shows that you don't necessarily need the most recent copy of the registry.  Because of the way Microsoft has designed windows when it writes to the registry hives, outright file corruption is an extremely rare event, even on FAT32 and even less so on NTFS.  Most of the time when you have to use an old registry, it is because some third-party program (or the user) altered a registry key (or few) and is crashing the system.

[ScutMonkey]

We use a product like that already, but the manpower needed to manage over 1000 servers (my current environment) and make sure it's done when it won't cause issues with other applications is a pain and feels unnecessary when Unix has a better format by default for dealing with this.

[ScutMonkey]

Oh BTW, after my video card drivers got corrupted somehow again I gave up last night and just installed Windows XP on this system.  Now it's up, running, has firefox and World Of Warcraft running just fine.  Does everything I wanted the Linux box to do.  We'll see if I have problems with the video card now.