I got a book for you Vorlon!

[ScutMonkey]

I believe Junior's actions, though counter to his words, go against every American teaching and ideal.  Say one thing while doing another... that's who Junior is.  Nevermind what he believes, he has a job to perform and yes, that means heeding polls.  Otherwise you're just an elected King and not true leader serving the will of the people.

Nice of you to to take my expressed point and run it to the extreme.
Yeah, let's take every single decision and place it before the American people.
Whoap, it's seven o'clock!  Time to head to the polls for the day!

Now let me try it:  You think Junior should've taken us back to the moon, regardless of public sentiment.  (...and frankly I'm in favor of the space program...)

Try not to take reason and twist it into insanity.  His job dictates that he serves the will of the American people and you do so by listening to the people they hired... the people that surround you... the people who they forced out, fired and scapegoated... the people who disagreed with them in terms of Iraq and otherwise.

My point was, he was elected to represent A point of view.  Not ALL points of view.  He presented the reasons why you should elect him, people voted for him, he won.  People then got four years of him carrying out exactly what he said he was going to do, he promised more things, and more people voted for him the second time around.  And he's still doing what he said he was going to do.

That's what I want my President to do, even if I don't like his/her goals.  I want them to be consistent and do what they said they were going to do.  If a President or candidate for President cannot do this in the very least, then I have absolutely no real way to figure out who they are, what they stand for, and what I can expect from them.  This is the most dangerous sort of President you can have, IMO.

[Reflex]

Incorrect.  A politician is elected to represent a geographic region, not a demographic one.  Granted thats an idealistic point of view, but that is also how things were originally designed.  Your job if elected is to represent the people in the region that you represent, not your personal point of view, nor the views of exclusively those who voted for you.  Bush's job is to in the most general sense, represent the country.  Obviously that won't include every fringe there is.  If you remember his original campaign back in 2000, this is also explicitly what he promised.  He was going to unite the divide, and bring us 'compassionate conservatism'.  Obviously that never happened, he was at best a manchurian candidate.

And yes, Bush did indeed lie.  He disregarded all intelligence reports that did not reflect the point of view he was espousing.  He went so far as to ruin the careers of generals and intelligence agents who did thier job in trying to expose the truth.  I don't split hairs, to my mind Bush lied just as intentionally as Clinton did when he said "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."  Any attempt to mislead or decieve, is a lie.  Peroid.  I don't play games of semantics.

[Intuit]

WTF !?

Waiting for an example... or few.

Basically, you've said on many occasions that it is your belief that GWB lied - dishonestly and deliberately ignored information to the contrary - in order to manipulate US into a war which has killed many thousands of Iraqis and several thousand Americans.  I don't even know what you ascribe his motivations to, but you're basically accusing him of mass murder for no good reason or at least only for personal gain.

I do have to admit that I'm happy for two results that have come from this war:

1.  I don't have to listen to the retarded "Blood for Oil" horsesh*t anymore.
2.  I don't have to listen to the retarded "even if they don't find WMDs, they'll just plant them" horsesh*t anymore.

This is what you stated...
"I’ve never spoken as cruelly about another human being as you have about GWB on these forums.  Forgive me if I use such harsh terms to describe your feelings towards him due to that observation."

Maybe I misinterpreted your intent, you use of the word "cruel" implies that in all seriousness, resorted to insults of character, appearance, intelligence and/or ability to articulate versus actions...  versus fact.  Do you remember what I've stated about such topics in the past... how I've disagreed with them ?  Character, I don't insult character, I give you indicators showing what that character likely is.  The actions speak for themselves.

The word "hate", is a very strong word that ascribes emotions totally irrelevant or above and beyond reason.  For example, a Dad confronts the rapist-murderer of his 16 year old daughter in the courtroom.  Despite all the facts: the murderer was just convicted with deathrow, despite all his restraints, despite the confession, despite it not bringing back his daughter, despite the penalties (jail, fines) of doing so, despite the risk of personal injury, despite there being no apparent gain from this, in a blink of the eye the Father lunges accrossed the courtroom practically stepping on other family members and attempts to strangle the life out of this convict.  It takes at least three security gaurds to pull this guy off.  That... is hate.

hate [hayt]
v (past hat·ed, past participle hat·ed, present participle hat·ing, 3rd person present singular hates)
1.  vt dislike somebody or something intensely: to dislike somebody or something intensely, often in a way that evokes feelings of anger, hostility, or animosity

Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Another indicator of "hate" would be to blame circumstances and otherwise, totally irrelevant of the individual, on that individual.  For example, extremists who attempt to blame the nation's crime problems on immigrants.  For example, people who attempt to blame Junior alone for the decision to invade Iraq.  Do you remember what I've said about that ?  In short, we made that decision long before he came into office... that's what blockades are for.  Did you know there were instances, such as immigration where our viewpoints aligned ?  Not characteristic of an individual to backup an individual they hate.

I dislike and disagree with his Administration's decisions, viewpoints, perspectives and actions.  I don't care if you're Muslim or Christian, one should never justify an action as God's Will.  Because he lied, because he disrespected the American People and because he abuses his position even until this very day, I disrespect the man... I call him "Junior"... a title in which he's more than earned as far as I'm concerned.  Wouldn't someone who "hates" him instead, call him "Evil" ?  I respect the way his Father performed his job and even risked his career to perform that job.  (remember:  "No new taxes."?)  But how can I possibly hate the man, hate Junior when I don't even know this man.  I call "Jeb", "John Bush", his Father "Bush Senior" and "Hillary", "Mrs. Clinton" not only because I don't know these people, but because they haven't disrespected this nation, it's people, abused, scapegoated it's military and intelligence while admitting nothing of it to this day.  Dishonorable and disrespectful to say the least.   Next time you listen to a "Rush", FOX or virtually anyone of their cohorts, see how much respect they lend to a "Hillary", "Slick Willy", "Obama/Osama" and otherwise...

Though Hugh made the mistake of taking your "hate" statement at face value, he made a valid point...

so therefore nothing he sais is true.. ...................

[Rocky]

Bush has been the most honest and dishonest president ever.  Quite amazing really, his initial goals have not changed at all.  Everything he said he wanted to do hes done, hes just fibbed his way into getting done what he wanted.  Weird.

Lie:
1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.

Could you please show your proof that GWB lied.  As far as I know, the only thing which GWB could be convicted of is being misled by George Tenet and bad intelligence.  This was the legal conclusion the bipartisan 9/11 commission came to.

Ill use your #2.   Bush and his administration following 9/11 said Saddm/Iraq and Al Queda/911 in back to back sentances and paragraphs thousands of times.  This was meant to deceive the public and give the wrong impression to garner support for the war in Iraq.  I am no way arguing the right or wrong of the Iraq war, simply that Bush purposely deceived the public into beleive Iraq was involved with 9/11.  We've been through this here, but the polling when we went to war in Iraq said 70% of the public thought Saddam had some part in 9/11.  If we didnt get that impression from our leaders, who did we get it from?

[Fontaine]

Bush has been the most honest and dishonest president ever.  Quite amazing really, his initial goals have not changed at all.  Everything he said he wanted to do hes done, hes just fibbed his way into getting done what he wanted.  Weird.

Lie:
1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.

Could you please show your proof that GWB lied.  As far as I know, the only thing which GWB could be convicted of is being misled by George Tenet and bad intelligence.  This was the legal conclusion the bipartisan 9/11 commission came to.

Ill use your #2.   Bush and his administration following 9/11 said Saddm/Iraq and Al Queda/911 in back to back sentances and paragraphs thousands of times.  This was meant to deceive the public and give the wrong impression to garner support for the war in Iraq.  I am no way arguing the right or wrong of the Iraq war, simply that Bush purposely deceived the public into beleive Iraq was involved with 9/11.  We've been through this here, but the polling when we went to war in Iraq said 70% of the public thought Saddam had some part in 9/11.  If we didnt get that impression from our leaders, who did we get it from?

http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-86926225312642413&q=the+secret&total=61753&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2

?

[Intuit]

Ya know I was thinking:  "No one in this day and age would ever run a report like that; even on CBS."

I wondered what happened to Mr. Moyer and began looking in on him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Moyers

When he retired in December 2004, the AP News Service quoted Moyers, "I'm going out telling the story that I think is the biggest story of our time: how the right-wing media has become a partisan propaganda arm of the Republican National Committee. We have an ideological press that's interested in the election of Republicans, and a mainstream press that's interested in the bottom line. Moyers said: Therefore, we don't have a vigilant, independent press whose interest is the American people."

Someone working on the inside mirroring my observations... observations which some people have denied in whole.

Don't know why this video is split up... perhaps that it be less of and a more difficult target for copyright enforcement personnel.
So this is only part 1 of possibly 5:  
http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-86926225312642413&q=the+secret&total=61753&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2

[Fontaine]

Don't know why this video is split up... perhaps that it be less of and a more difficult target for copyright enforcement personnel.
So this is only part 1 of possibly 5:  

Found the full version (I think.. watching it now):

http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=3505348655137118430&q=Secret+bill+moyers&total=45&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

[Intuit]

I do have to admit that I’m happy for two results that have come from this war:

1.  I don’t have to listen to the retarded “Blood for Oil” horsesh*t anymore.
2.  I don’t have to listen to the retarded “even if they don’t find WMDs, they’ll just plant them” horsesh*t anymore.

...and you wonder why people say things like that.

[Fontaine]

Its a great documentary.
Its shows the beauty and the ugliness from the US, even so when its mainly about critique its shows how ''great principles'' can get vague and ugly with a few people in power.

Covered in lies and vagueness in the name of freedom/democracy etc still existing today.

[ScutMonkey]

...and you wonder why people say things like that.

Because I think most people care about their own beliefs about a situation being proven true rather than what really happened.

[Intuit]

Frankly there have been a lot of things proven true in recent times that were previously thought to be within the realm of crackpot theory; and I don't need to give examples.  I believe people ultimately care about the US living up to the principles it set forth.  Less, Abu-G would be the norm rather than the exception.

[Fontaine]

Luckely that stuff doesn't happen anymore these days
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/08/25/national/main3203792.shtml

[ScutMonkey]

Frankly there have been a lot of things proven true in recent times that were previously thought to be within the realm of crackpot theory; and I don't need to give examples.  I believe people ultimately care about the US living up to the principles it set forth.  Less, Abu-G would be the norm rather than the exception.

And there are plenty which didn't come to pass as I mentioned.  And plenty more which are ignored, like GWB saying the invasion of Iraq was in park humanitarian in nature as put forth by GWB's state of the union address before the invasion started.

I think people care about the US living up to the principles and expectations they personally have for the country.

[ScutMonkey]

Luckely that stuff doesn't happen anymore these days
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/08/25/national/main3203792.shtml

If that happened, it's disgusting and people should investigated and fired.

[Fontaine]

That's the point, you can't.

From the link:
''"The only way we can find out what is going on is for someone to come forward and let us know. But when they do, the weight of the government comes down on them. The message is, 'Don't blow the whistle or we'll make your life hell.'"

[Intuit]

Frankly there have been a lot of things proven true in recent times that were previously thought to be within the realm of crackpot theory; and I don't need to give examples.  I believe people ultimately care about the US living up to the principles it set forth.  Less, Abu-G would be the norm rather than the exception.

And there are plenty which didn't come to pass as I mentioned.  And plenty more which are ignored, like GWB saying the invasion of Iraq was in park humanitarian in nature as put forth by GWB's state of the union address before the invasion started.

I think people care about the US living up to the principles and expectations they personally have for the country.

Sure people have personal expectations for any nation but can anyone honestly look at the Constitution and honestly say that it was created with the kind of "evil" (as Junior would put it,) in mind, that has come to light in recent years ?  Funny Hussein's accusers became what they claimed to be eliminating.

Junior indeed said a lot of things but when someone breaks your trust, in what light does that place everything else that this person ever stated ?  Junior flat-out lied.  I don't believe he's an idiot and I don't believe that was entirely incompetence.  Iraq was never "a grave threat" and that was his primary case and motivation for starting the war.  Remember WMDs ?  If Iraq wasn't played-up as some sort of HUGE post 9/11 threat (like Iran is) I don't think for a moment we'd be there removing Hussein.  We had no case to label him a modern-day threat and even less of a case to label him a modern-day tyrant; thirty year-old history aside.  You don't kill however many hundreds of thousands of people while forcing out millions more and call it "a humanitarian effort".  He can dishonorably scapegoat our military and dishonorably scapegoat our intelligence all he wants... if the common Joe Shmow (me) can call his bullsh* the moment it left his mouth, (and not years later) why couldn't Mr. "Decider" see it for what it was himself ?  Iraqi Govt spy-infiltrated, 10+ years blockaded, 10+ years of bombing, 100% satellite mapped and monitored, Hans Blix not being concerned, inspectors never find a dang thing.  (+ people balking, being fired and resigning left & right -- even Powell almost resigned) Like I said he's not an idiot... and so yields our conclusions.