The Peaceful Majority - one of the more thought provoking pieces of chain mail I have gotten lately.

[Maturin]

>>> >THE IRRELEVANCE OF THE PEACEFUL MAJORITY

A man whose family was German aristocracy prior to
>>> >World War 2 owned a number of large industries and
>>> >estates. When asked how many German people were true
>>> >Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude
>>> >toward fanaticism.
>>> >
>>> >"Very few people were true Nazis "he said," but many
>>> >enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were
>>> >too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought
>>> >the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just
>>> >sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew
>>> >it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the
>>> >end of the world had come. My family lost everything.
>>> >I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies
>>> >destroyed my factories."
>>> >
>>> >We are told again and again by "experts" and "talking
>>> >heads" that Islam is the religion of peace, and that
>>> >the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in
>>> >peace.
>>> >
>>> >Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is
>>> >entirely irrelevant! It is meaningless fluff, meant to
>>> >make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the
>>> >specter of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the
>>> >name of Islam. The fact is that the fanatics rule
>>> >Islam at this moment in history.
>>> >
>>> >It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who
>>> >wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the
>>> >fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or
>>> >tribal Groups throughout Africa and are gradually
>>> >taking over the entire Continent in an Islamic wave.
>>> >It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honor
>>> >kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after
>>> >mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the
>>> >stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals.
>>> >The hard quantifiable fact is that the "peaceful
>>> >majority" the "silent majority" is cowed and
>>> >extraneous.
>>> >
>>> >Communist Russia comprised Russians who just wanted to
>>> >live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were
>>> >responsible for the murder of about 20 million people.
>>> >The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China's huge
>>> >population, it was peaceful as well, but Chinese
>>> >Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million
>>> >people.
>>> >
>>> >The average Japanese individual prior to World War 2
>>> >was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and
>>> >slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy
>>> >of killing that included the systematic murder of 12
>>> >million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword,
>>> >shovel and bayonet.
>>> >
>>> >And, who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into
>>> >butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of
>>> >Rwandans were "peace loving"?
>>> >
>>> >History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt,
>>> >yet for all our powers of reason we often miss the
>>> >most basic and uncomplicated of points:
>>> >Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by
>>> >their silence.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they
>>> >don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany,
>>> >they will awake one day and find that the fanatics own
>>> >them, and the end of their world will have begun.
>>> >
>>> >Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians,
>>> >Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians,
>>> >Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have
>>> >died because the peaceful majority did not speak up
>>> >until it was too late.
>>> >
>>> >As for us who watch it all unfold; we must pay
>>> >attention to the only group that counts; the fanatics
>>> >who threaten our way of life.
>>> >
>>> >Lastly, at the risk of offending, anyone who doubts
>>> >that the issue is serious and just deletes this email
>>> >without sending it on, can contribute to the
>>> >passiveness that allows the problems to expand. So,
>>> >extend yourself a bit and send this on and on and on!!
>>> >Let us hope that thousands, world wide, read this -
>>> >think about it - and send it on.

I think this article can be looked at from more than one viewpoint. There is definitely a peaceful majority in America. (I am one of them)
We cant be bothered to care about something that does not seem to affect us directly, something that we are numbed to by the media around us.

What do you think of the concept of the Irrelevance of the Peaceful Majority? Where do you see this relating to  your life?

[Fontaine]

Personally I see this president and his cronies as fanaticts aswell and they are directly affecting US citizens, already you lost some freedoms and with these huge debts which where made by simply creating money out of nothing since otherwise this war couldn't be payed will give those in power even more control when there comes a (new) crisis.
Don't forget, these debts look like you can pay them back but the $ is crashing in value and will crash more since the interest rates must be lowered to help the housing market which was just 1 of those balloons filled with air and people don't really care, sure lots don't really like this war but nothing serious is being done and the damage is already done, so they think..

Read the first alinea from that email and read germany as ''america'' and Nazi's perhaps as patriots? or the bush admnistration? Ofcourse you can never really compare but it can become as dangerous at 1 point.

A man whose family was German aristocracy prior to
>>> >World War 2 owned a number of large industries and
>>> >estates. When asked how many German people were true
>>> >Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude
>>> >toward fanaticism.
>>> >
>>> >"Very few people were true Nazis “he said,” but many
>>> >enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were
>>> >too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought
>>> >the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just
>>> >sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew
>>> >it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the
>>> >end of the world had come.

[Clipperjay]

So I assume this writer is Jewish who lived in Germany?
Also mildly placing Islam in there without the Jewish contribution into its own context?
Also forgetting to state that actually regardless of evil actions there is always some people to take up the good fight and paid with there lives!
Chain mail? Leave it in that context!

[Fontaine]

No its an american telling we should do everything to fight Islam followers/countries/people since once they where just some people/fanaticts but now as a whole they have become a danger to our western freedoms.

And yes its just a stupid email

[Maturin]

IMO neither of those.
 I read it as a Peaceful Muslim person who wants his peaceful brothers to rise up against those who would take control of the religion of Islam and use it for their own gains, before it is too late and they have total control.

I posted this because I thought people might want to think about the concept of peaceful majority of people standing up for themselves and rising up against those who wish to not be peaceful.


So Clipper, I take it you skimmed over this and interpreted as a news/current events story rather than how I meant it, as an exploration of ideas. I guess this is better suited to the off topic/debate section, although what is described in it is a current event.
But we normally debate here anyway.

[Fontaine]

IMO neither of those.
 I read it as a Peaceful Muslim person who wants his peaceful brothers to rise up against those who would take control of the religion of Islam and use it for their own gains, before it is too late and they have total control.

I posted this because I thought people might want to think about the concept of peaceful majority of people standing up for themselves and rising up against those who wish to not be peaceful.


So Clipper, I take it you skimmed over this and interpreted as a news/current events story rather than how I meant it, as an exploration of ideas. I guess this is better suited to the off topic/debate section, although what is described in it is a current event.
But we normally debate here anyway.

So that is how they (peacefull muslims) fight it with sending such emails to americans to fight those muslim fanatics? give me a break!

[Maturin]

Probably sent by an American Muslim to other American Muslims and I somehow ended up with it

[Fontaine]

You are not an American Muslim I think? but you think/believe its to make american muslims aware of this danger? Since you believe its a danger to our western freedoms as a non muslim? or are you an american muslim? (I'm almost 100% sure you are not an american muslim btw).

[Virtuous1]

I'm with Fon on this one, it certainly was some war-monger/someone using this as propoganda for political purposes (someone who is big on military spending?). Certainly not someone who wants their "muslim brothers" to rise up against this fanaticism.

And as Clipper pointed out, many of the "examples" of the peaceful populace doing nothing is bullshit. No one was standing up against the Japanese in WW2? WTF? Or the Nazi's for that matter??

However, there is a good point in that people need to be more involved, when they see attrocities going on (or hopefully signs that they're about to happen before they do) some one says something and does something about it. Someone "doing" something being a world wide force, not one country (pay attention Bush), otherwise it just looks like the same sort of injustice coming from a different side.

[Fontaine]

I do think there should be bigger anti muslim extreminist movement from the middle east itself but it has grown so deep its hard to get another movement. This war against Iraq and afghanistan only created more fanaticts&more followers so with fighting it it has become a bigger problem. Now you have more fanaticts  on both sides which have grown stronger and stronger each day. So fight them! and maybe when enough shit has happened on both sides both get to their sences but it does come with huge cost on both sides caused by a few fanaticts.
Not only it has created more hate against muslims but also to your own government and people are divided in your own country.

Who where concerned by those muslims in Iraq and afghanistan before 9-11? After 9-11 they where made as true enemies caused by a few people.
Hate creates hate and they created this ''truth''. Don't get suckered in it as well. There are only losses. Nobody is innocent and both should feel grief about their losses and this same feeling could bring peace in the end so there is always hope! But it didn't came easy and it was just not needed, or was it? Well I just don't have a part of it.. only giving my view from an outsider. But please show grief on both sides! If you are not even able to do that you deserve to loose!

[Clipperjay]

IMO neither of those.
 I read it as a Peaceful Muslim person who wants his peaceful brothers to rise up against those who would take control of the religion of Islam and use it for their own gains, before it is too late and they have total control.

I posted this because I thought people might want to think about the concept of peaceful majority of people standing up for themselves and rising up against those who wish to not be peaceful.


So Clipper, I take it you skimmed over this and interpreted as a news/current events story rather than how I meant it, as an exploration of ideas. I guess this is better suited to the off topic/debate section, although what is described in it is a current event.
But we normally debate here anyway.

Well speed reading is my game and yes I absorbed most of it.
 Germany needed help over depression, famine and hyperinflation no wonder the German people took to Hitler, it doesn't make it any less damming?
Do we govern to look after the people or do we elect to govern to represent the people?
That’s my take on current ideological governments are there to serve the people not the other way around, reality is Germany knew exactly what Hitler was doing and they did nothing. That is what the Germans have to live with.
The Muslims have a similar structure as do the Americans.
Sad? yes!
Common place? Well history has demonstrated this time over time.
I'm surprised we have not blown ourselves up yet, let alone waste my time reading chain mails with random subjective points in context and form.

History is useful its supposed to teach the people what went wrong, but that small human condition which fails us called "Ego" and making their mark in history means death and destruction or repression!

[Reflex]

On the surface the paper does sound like a good idea, but unfortunatly it makes subtle statements that make it clear that it was no Muslim who wrote this piece but instead someone with an axe to grind and a position to support.  No Muslim would imply that global Islam should be standing up.  The implication of such a statement is that there is a 'global' Islamic movement in the first place that can take such a stand.  In reality, Islam exists accross multiple cultures, east and west, and across dozens of ethnicities and regions.  There is no central voice, there is no 'pope' figure, and there is little common ground.  Islam reflects the culture of a given region just as much as Christianity does around the world.  The overwhelming majority of Muslims are peaceful individuals who would never attack a Christian or Jew.  There is no reason to imply that they are somehow responsible for the zealots because they are not also taking up arms against them.  Many of them follow the same basic tenet that Christians supposedly follow: Teach by example.  Living a good life, being prosperous and spreading the word is all that is necessaryfor them, just as it is all that is necessary for a Christian or Jew.  Expecting them to essentially become militant in their form of belief and attempt to purge other sects is asking them to become that which they oppose.

The people responsible for Nazi Germany are those citizens who became Nazis or who enabled them(ie: economic stakeholders).  Not those citizens who were oppressed.  Not thier victims.  The same goes for the Chinese in southeast Asians in WW2.  The same is true today for the dozens of Muslims being murdered by the extremists, in case anyone has forgotten, most of the terrorist attacks are killing more Muslims than they are any other group, they are already paying the price for thier militant brethren far harder than non-Muslims are.

Very sly piece of propoganda however.  It cloaks its bigotry in the language of reason.  But historically speaking, the most effective propoganda usually does.

[Timster]

The number listed for the numbers killed off by the Soviet Communists seems small.  Stalin killed of at least 43 million during his regime, and the number is probably closer to 60-80 million.

Back to the topic, I get the impression that the author is trying to say history has shown that big problems started out as small problems, and being passive or indifferent will not prevent a problem from growing.  Doing nothing is as bad as doing the wrong thing.

[Fontaine]

IMO neither of those.
 I read it as a Peaceful Muslim person who wants his peaceful brothers to rise up against those who would take control of the religion of Islam and use it for their own gains, before it is too late and they have total control.

I posted this because I thought people might want to think about the concept of peaceful majority of people standing up for themselves and rising up against those who wish to not be peaceful.


So Clipper, I take it you skimmed over this and interpreted as a news/current events story rather than how I meant it, as an exploration of ideas. I guess this is better suited to the off topic/debate section, although what is described in it is a current event.
But we normally debate here anyway.

Germany needed help over depression, famine and hyperinflation no wonder the German people took to Hitler

And that danger is indead still lurking arround the corner.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation

In economics, hyperinflation is inflation that is "out of control," a condition in which prices increase rapidly as a currency loses its value. No precise definition of hyperinflation is universally accepted. One simple definition requires a monthly inflation rate of 20 or 30% or more. In informal usage the term is often applied to much lower rates.

The definition used by most economists is "an inflationary cycle without any tendency toward equilibrium." A vicious circle is created in which more and more inflation is created with each iteration of the cycle. Although there is a great deal of debate about the root causes of hyperinflation, it becomes visible when there is an unchecked increase in the money supply or drastic debasement of coinage, and is often associated with wars (or their aftermath), economic depressions, and political or social upheavals.

=========

Above you already see happening and when nothing is done about it....
Note how much the dollar has fallen in a short time and be sure its very important that most oil will be used in dollars.
What happened in germany can still happen today.

[Balthaser]

every line in that email shows a word: IGNORANT

[Intuit]

Precisely.

Chain eMails are only very rarely "thought provoking".
Yeah, yeah there are billions of eevviill moooslims out to get us all ho humm.

Damn neocon conspiracy nuts.
The international variety of the anti-govt types are likely numbered in the thousands, not tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands or millions and billions.

The divide and motivations are political, anti-government, not religious but whatever I'm tired of repeating myself.
If they were religious they wouldn't be blowing up government-backed mosques in moooslim nations; and don't tell me it's a Sunni/Shiiate thing that would be false.

It's also interesting how they covered past genocides, wars, civil wars, massacres, attrocities and injustices from all accrossed the world but conveniently forget those that occured under the thumb of the government right here at home.  This is what people refer to as "selective memory" or, "patriotism" in many circles.  (mislabeled of course)

Anti-Government views are certainly nothing new in the United States but how we claim to be dealing with them currently for the most part, are; and it's a no wonder why the problem is increasing versus decreasing.  A real thought provoker would be, "How have Governments dealt with anti-government views and militias in the past and how can we effectively do so now?".  Whether micro-organism, physical phenomenon, animal/human we have to understand a problem in order to solve it.     If we refuse to understand the phonemonon/enemy/problem then how can we resolve it ?   You don't battle HIV with sex, landslides with roads and anti-government fanaticism with unmitigated incursions on land and freedoms, local and abroad.  As I've said, Junior's initial "War on Terror" was absolute brilliance but too much that has occured since then that is counterproductive.  

Eliminate the language barrier... the Government using human and electronic resources should serve to promote open trade and dialogue between those in Eastern Governments/Peoples and most of all, stop screwing with their way of life.  Prior to Junior's Axis of Evil rant Iran for example had a twice reelected, "progressive" leader who was on relatively friendly terms with the United States.  Single-handedly starting a new and invigored nuclear arms race with open threats of war helps no-one and comments like "You're either FOR US or AGAINST US." and "Bring it on." gravely understate how not to deal with fanaticism.

If we're such a threat, they need to be proven wrong to the masses, not right.

[Fontaine]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,296450,00.html

U.S. Officials Begin Crafting Iran Bombing Plan

So when it does happen will there be protests? or will nobody really care?

[Intuit]

WASHINGTON —  A recent decision by German officials to withhold support for any new sanctions against Iran has pushed a broad spectrum of officials in Washington to develop potential scenarios for a military attack on the Islamic regime, FOX News confirmed Tuesday. ...............

Frankly I thought both Israel and we already had such plans laid-out.  They're probably just revising plans already laid-out.

In any event, it's not that they won't have political support for an actual attack, (initially there wasn't any support for Iraq) but that they have anti-support for this and this is despite their Neocon eMail campaigns:

Gasoline


  NEWS FLASH:
 
 Chavez is NOW getting a Russian Weapons Factory built by Putin.
 
 The RUSSIANS are building an AK-47 Kalashnikov Assault Rifle factory
 in Venezuela, to give armament support to Communist Rebel groups
 throughout the Americas.
 
 Chavez NOW has IRANIANS operating his oil refineries in Venezuela.

 It is likely only a matter of time, if not already, before Chavez has
 Iranian-built LONG RANGE missiles, with a variety of warhead types aimed
 at:                   Guess Who?
 
 CITGO is NOW in the process of Changing Its Name to PETRO EXPRESS due
 to the loss of gasoline sales in the USA due to the recent publicity of
 ownership by Chavez of Venezuela. Also remember EVERY 7-Eleven is
 CITGO -  even tho they took down their CITGO signs.
 
 Every dollar you spend with CITGO or PETRO EXPRESS gasoline will be
 used against you, your basic human rights, and your freedoms. He will start
 wars here in the Americas that will probably be the death of millions of free
 people.
 
 THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT, because Ch! avez is starting to feel the loss of
 revenue from his holdings. HE OWNS CITGO. This is a very important move
 that everyone should be aware of.
 
 ANNOUNCED JUST RECENTLY, CITGO, BEING AWARE THAT SALES ARE DOWN DUE TO
 U.S. CUSTOMERS NOT WANTING TO BUY FROM 'CITGO-CHAVEZ', HAVE STARTED TO CHANGE
 THE NAME OF SOME OF THEIR STATIONS TO: 'PETRO EXPRESS' DO NOT BUY FROM
'PETRO  EXPRESS' EITHER!!! 'PETRO EXPRESS' IS ALSO 100% OWNED BY 'CHAVEZ.'
 
 KEEP THIS MEMO GOING SO THAT EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT IS HAPPENING. BOYCOTT
 CITGO' AND 'PETRO EXPRESS' AND MAKE SURE THIS IS PASSED ON TO EVERYONE
 YOUR E-MAIL LIST IN THE UNITED STATES AND OUTSIDE OF AMERICA

I could be wrong as I haven't been checking any forums with regulary neocon posters but I just don't believe an attack on Iran will fly very well.

[Reflex]

The US has military plans for every potential or concievable threat you could imagine.  They even have plans for attacks by aliens.  Simply existing and revising plans does not prove an intent on implementing them.  I do feel that Bush would love an excuse to invade Iran, however I don't see one forthcoming at this time.

[Fontaine]

Ofcourse but now they are coming together discussing if this is the best option to deal with iran since sanctions are not helping enough and they made a timetable and it must be done before the next elections so this plan is more serious than any other plan currently. Basicly its just taking out the complete Iran military with massive bombings and ofcourse all facilities which may create a nuclear bomb.
Also Iran want to use euros to sell oil which (or did they already?) = very bad news.

[Intuit]

The US has military plans for every potential or concievable threat you could imagine.  They even have plans for attacks by aliens.  Simply existing and revising plans does not prove an intent on implementing them.  I do feel that Bush would love an excuse to invade Iran, however I don't see one forthcoming at this time.

Also called, "contingency planning"... planning for every conceivable possibility.
I always thought "Men in Black II" outlined our alien invasion contingency plan pretty well.   (kidding folks)

[Fontaine]

The US has military plans for every potential or concievable threat you could imagine.  They even have plans for attacks by aliens.  Simply existing and revising plans does not prove an intent on implementing them.  I do feel that Bush would love an excuse to invade Iran, however I don't see one forthcoming at this time.

Also called, "contingency planning"... planning for every conceivable possibility.
I always thought "Men in Black II" outlined our alien invasion contingency plan pretty well.   (kidding folks)

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13540.htm

[rrussell]

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13540.htm

Fontaine, I don't trust anything you say since you brainwashed me into killing my father.

Sorry. Trust only goes so far.

[Fontaine]

Killing never helps.